(Cussing warning - but it's a quote, and in context. And you'll NEVER guess who it was.)
I was recently reminded of the following:
Kip McKean lives in a $650,000 luxury condo that he purchased in 2010. (For the record, as seen in the link, Kip's legal name is "Thomas Wayne", not "Kip".)
This condo has a special significance to me. This is where I visited Kip in 2011 to talk about lying, theft, abuse and threats by one of his top leaders. And was completely shot down.
If I were better informed about Kip's history, I would have known in advance how the meeting would turn out. Kip would categorically defend the higher leader (Victor), and systematically attack the lower leader (me). Because leadership is from God and leaders are always right. And the most important thing is to maintain order. Leaders on top, and Kip on top of the leaders.
So, my Kip McKean luxury condo meeting was short and ended abruptly. I started talking, and for several seconds started to tell Kip how Victor had lied to me and abused his position in the church to steal from me.
Kip then interrupted me to insist that nothing of the sort had happened. Victor was innocent of all charges (except of possibly being "insensitive"), and that everything was certainly just a "misunderstanding."
Never mind that Victor had already confessed to everything in front of a witness.
However, while Kip's buddy was found mostly innocent, "I", on the other hand, was found very, very guilty.
Why? Because I was guilty of the cardinal sin of the church - I was found to no longer believe all of the (ridiculous, wrong, damaging) things that every member of Kip's churches are supposed to believe.
So, here I was, in Kip's luxury condo, getting shot down.
(It wasn't until much, much later, that the obvious dawned on me - the whole meeting was a setup. Kip and Victor had obviously talked beforehand, and Kip had decided what had happened, and how the meeting would turn out, long before the meeting.)
That was an interesting day. Kip chatted me up at first, while we waited for Victor and Jeremy to get there. Then, I sat in disbelief as lies won out over truth. Then, I listened to Kip say the words "fuck" and "shit" in the same breath. That shattered a bit of my uptight religious sensibilities of the time (even though I was basically atheist by this point.)
(Context - one among the laundry list of concerns I levied about Victor was that he cusses .. something that I questioned as a church leader in a church that explicitly teaches teaches against it. So Kip says, "What did he say? Fuck? Shit? Ass? ...You know, some of words are relative now. 'Butt' used to be a swear word, but now is normal for people to say." Not what I would have expected, although Victor nor Jeremy flinched or blinked.)
Then Elena came in, and I sensed some serious tension between Kip and her. About what? Who knows. But there was snapping going on about things she wanted to do.
So we drew things to a close, Kip gave me a big creepy hug, and I walked back out, past the doors of executives and celebrities, and down towards my junky car, to ask Jeremy, why in the living H. E. double hockey-stick didn't he open his mouth and defend my word against Victor's, since he knew full well he was lying?
... So, $650,000 ... If memory serves, I think there were about 200 members in the City of Angels church in 2010. That would mean, $3,250 per member towards the cost of the condo (ignoring the other 10% or whatever additional cost for closing fees, etc.) Spread out over a year, that would be an average of $270 per member, per month.
Oddly, I remember at the annual financial meeting in 2010 that the entire amount of money the church received in that year was around $650,000.
That's a lot of dollars, all donated with sacrifice by church members.
And whether or not the condo money came out of the sacrifice and contributions of the church members in 2010, or before, or after, ... that's a lot of dollars.
I know for me, I'm sure glad my year-over-year sacrifice of 25% of my annual income, and many personal sacrifices, were able to be put to good use - helping pay for Kip's condo, where I started to see, that the man that I had invested 15 years and two mission teams following, was not much like I had thought, hoped, or been told.
(Here is some more info about Kip's condo.)
One of the first verses I was required to memorize in my first discipleship group was Ephesians 4:29, "Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is fitting for building each other up."ReplyDelete
Right, cussing kind of goes against that. As do threats, which came in another meeting (see links to the left). Describing facts and uncovering wrongdoing, not so much.Delete
LIES, Lies and More Lies!! THey told me Kip lives in a Really Tiny Apartment and pays Fair Market Rent!! Y R U Persecutingggggg :( :((( :'((ReplyDelete
if its all lies... why is it registered to them??? take a look!!! http://losangeles.blockshopper.com/property/4229020042/13700_marina_pointe_unit_1211Delete
I wish it was. Its real. I know because the realtor was my discipler.Delete
Seems to be registered to the Mckeans or is that a lie? You're just too ignorant to accept that your precious leader could be wrong and just using members for his own personal gain. Why do you worship a sinner anyway? You're supposed to worship God, who cares about Kip, he shouldn't be any higher than your fellow Bro or Sis.
R U Talkin 2 ME? I dont worship a SINNER - Kip isa Man of GOD - Gods Greatest Treasure! YOUR a Sinner! :( :(( >:(Delete
You are full of yourself Kip worse than the devil himself because you have lied to so many people just to have some money. Even your own children don't support your ministry because they know it's a scam. I pray one day you will repent and truly seek God through the help of the Holy Spirit, that's my pray for you. STOP fooling people please. God brought you down the first time, He will do it again, He changes not and He cannot be fooled.Delete
Thanks for posting. The ICOC imploded after so long, and the ICC is just a repeat of the ICOC and is under the same pressures. Every day that it continues is glory time for Kip, who gets to enjoy people worshiping him, doing whatever he says, and even paying him for the privilege. But the new house of cards will tumble just as the old house of cards tumbled. Until that happens, hopefully we can help as many people as possible avoid being taken by the scam.Delete
Lest we forget the bible verse where Jesus sternly warns those immoral false shepherd who mislead his flocks - eternal damnation awaits Kip "the imposter"!Delete
Kip you are a Bastard going to Hell unless you repent and Trust Jesus and not your works (Ephesians 2:8-9)ReplyDelete
Unfortunately, I do not think that Kip gets any messages that are left for him here. By the way, please leave Kip's parents out of this. And if you think hell is a real place, I'd encourage you to start reading some articles about basic science so that you will (eventually, hopefully) no longer be tortured by fears of imaginary punishment in imaginary locations.Delete
ED, you left the church but no longer have the Bible as your standard too? Wow, how did I miss this. Interesting.Delete
Just because YOU don't believe something, doesn't mean isn't true! Real talk: I agree with a lot of what you've posted. However, for you to mock someone on something that's quite vividly mentioned IN the bible, is pretty presumptuous and rude. Everyone believes what they do. Our differences make us human. You're entitled to not "believe", just as others ARE entitled to.
Just like K.M. telling people to choose "his" church or be damned, you come across similarly with your thought and comment about hell.
Stop whining you guys would move in the place if you could. Most of you would probably go back to the ICOC for 10 bucks and some changeReplyDelete
Welcome, current ICC member!Delete
The way this blog is presented is not from a godly man, I have concerns that you were on a mission team N in the ministry so long. I to had be in leadership and hurt on the first ICOC, but, never do I slander them to this day, God keeps me! there is too much slander and worldly approach on this article. And to a commentor one here, Calling Kip names and judging him....makes you sound like the very thing YOU accuse HIM of. Sorry, I don't believe a word of this I'd say if this is how you talked in the meetin, this is why you weren't listened to:-) How do I know? I use to struggle with this very thing, getting defensive and prideful, something the Lord has refined in me. If a brother has sinned against you, you MUST forgive, You said he already CONFESSED, So this is not forgiving doing this. And if they are in the wrong? and you think you are warning others? I have not seen one concern rooted in love, No talk of praying for them? BUT Ill pray for your situation. God blessReplyDelete
Bernadine, thank you for commenting. I'm sorry that you "don't believe a word of this." It would have been hard for me to believe, too, if I had not lived through it myself. Luckily, I got out before I wasted any more good years or dollars promoting Kip McKean and his business.Delete
Bernadine, actually, if we were in court you are pretty much the winnerDelete
Welcome, current ICC member! (Bernadine herself?) Please continue the process of educating yourself of the experiences of former members. You will find the same stories of abuse, control, manipulation and deceit repeated over and over. It's no surprise that the ICC is growing so slowly - many people are becoming wise to the tricks that Kip and friends have been pulling for so many years now.Delete
Bernadine. Please study the Word and how Jesus spoke of the Pharisees. I think you will find that Jesus was not slandering the Pharisees, but he definitely had some strong words against them, and some of those times, they were not present to hear them. Jesus protected his disciples from such people by speaking about those we should be warned about. I think you might change your understanding on what it means to slander.Delete
What a hypocrite, blind Pharisee, it amazes me when current members of the cult tell exmembers not to criticize them and yet the cult are masters of lying slander and twisting things and slandering their "former fellowship" people like Bernadine are the worst type of hypocrites they are blind pharisees and don't even know it, the cult is full of double standards and two faced.Delete
Bernadine, Having left the church before it became what it is now, all I can think is same crud, in my case different decade.Delete
It's not slander or libel if it's demonstratively true, which it is.Delete
(reads the last couple sentences) Apply cold water to burned area.ReplyDelete
Yes, I sure did get burned! :/Delete
so how does kip see al baird,marty fuqua his brother that are in the icoc?ReplyDelete
Kip has three groups of people. Anyone who does what Kip tells them to do, is a hero and is going to be praised by Kip. Anyone who DOESN'T do what Kip tells them to do, is "controlled by Satan" and is going to get ripped to shreds in Kip's eyes. And anyone who Kip thinks may still "come around" and start doing what Kip tells them to do, is somewhere in the middle of those two other groups, until it is clear if the person is going to follow Kip's commands or not.Delete
you sound a very bitter person. and very worldly minded. if you went all this trouble to make a blog why don't you show pictures, document pictures, and even recording to make your accusation valid.ReplyDelete
Welcome current ICC member! Thank you for demonstrating the ICC technique of attacking critics, and always trying to turn things around against anyone who criticizes the church. There is obviously something wrong with me if I criticize God's Man (Kip McKean, of course) and God's One True Church (the ICC, of course, of course), right? So make an impossible bar of proof, and place it upon me. Better yet, why don't YOU prove ME wrong?Delete
In a civil court the preponderance of the evidence is sufficient to prove negligence. Pretty sure we have that don't we? I re watched Al Bairds defense of the church and he stated 40 accusers verses 4000 duped Kippy Clones were not worth listening to. So 40 people imagined abuse OR did they just not matter?Delete
and why don't you use a real name?Delete
Its amazing to me that anyone who criticizes the ICC is labeled bitter. That is the that old Don't Feel Don't Talk abusive nature of a disfunctional family. You are a stupid fool. How dare you try to silence people for seeking healing from this ungoldy group.Delete
here is your proof. Look up Ed Powers and the Indianapolis Church. Look up the Henry Kriete Letter. Look up 20/20 on youtube the International Church of Christ. By the way which is way different now ever since Kip isn't leading them anymore, thank GOD!Delete
Look up http://www.icocinvestigation.com/ You will find all the documentation here you like. "Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly"- John 7:24
I have a friend in the North LA church and seems the Feumba's also have a nice place, not on the scale of Kip but a $435,000 home on Rhea Avenue paid for by the church, pretty good since they were supposedly refugees running from the civil war in 2011. Where did the money come from?ReplyDelete
Sorry that's $437,500 paid for by the church, seems Kip saying the church has no money as he preached about in the GLC 2014 is as usual wrong.Delete
The Feumbas apartment is RENTED! STOP lying! It is a fact that the churches all over the world RENT the properties NOT buy them.Delete
To Anonymous September 6: If you look back in history, NONE of the people who so staunchly defended the ICOC and Kip McKean with comments like yours back then, still support him today. Whether or not the place is rented or purchased, it is still a luxurious home that is being paid for by the sacrifices and contributions of people who live in much humbler accommodations. Kip and his top leaders are terribly overpaid, and the church cajoles and harangues its (mostly lower-middle-class) members constantly to provide the maximum money possible to continue to pay for the leadership's rich-people lifestyles.Delete
Yep, our ministry leaders lived in upscale apartments and large homes (I saw first hand) in the NYCC Ministry. It'd all be moot if history were not being repeated repeated. GDelete
Like groundhogs day repeated again like groundhogs day repeating itself again like groundhogs day... Crazy, right!!!
Find a better godly congregation with the right teachings and where the leaders treat their members like they treat their own selves.Delete
Hey anonymous. You have been taken for a fool. Kip owns his condo. I know that guy who was his realtor. What you don't know can hurt youDelete
"luxurious home" HA! I beg to differ. His place isn't that great. Go in person to these locations, you will see otherwise. Some are nicer, but hardly the homes of the pre-2000 pastors of the icoc/coc/ccc. That, they have repented of.Delete
It's hilarious that you bash on Kip McKean for his half a million dollar condo. And yet, you are not boycotting Kim Kardashian as a pseudo celebrity. She earned $89 million for a ridiculous app game that middle schoolers and adults with no life are wasting their time and money on. The Kardashian family is a true cult. The average American focus all their time watching the family reality show and letting the family become rich for not doing anything other than Kim as a 'breakout' porn star and the Kardashian patriarch defending OJ Simpson and Bruce as a famous athelete.ReplyDelete
And don't even get me started on the Church of Scientology with their endless fees for members in order to stay in the church. "Each" scientology member spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to David Miscavige so that he and cult poster boy Tom Cruise can spread the news that alien Lord Xenu created the humans...
Stop wasting your time on the ICC and start protesting the real cults: the Kardashians and the Church of Scientology.
The reason one feels compelled to talk about Kip etc. is because one was personally lied to by Kip and Co. We speak out in warnig so that others may not fall into the same trap. Kardashian did not make her money lying to people that God said they should do so and that the money they gave was going to be given to the poor and needy and to be used to advance the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Kip is a wicked, lying thief who has been exposed as far back as 2002. The more people know about him the less people there will be falling for his tricks. If blogger here had known what I had already known back in 2002, he would have saved himself much distress and many years and definitely lots of money. "They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely." - Luke 20:47Delete
To Anonymous Sept 14: Welcome current ICC member! Thank you so much for your insightful and constructive comments! You are totally correct, and I will now focus all of my attention on informing my readers about the dangers of the Kardashian family. Why couldn't I see this earlier? (Rolling eyes). I hope that after you leave the cult, you will somehow find your way back here and feel remorse and embarrassment for what you have written, and will then work to help free others from the brainwashing that you are still controlled by.Delete
To Anonymous Oct 1: I sure wish I had known way back in 2002 that Kip and his ministries were a load of BS designed to enrich the few at the cost of the many. Hopefully we can help some other people save themselves from the wasted years and thousands of dollars that get so quickly flushed down the toilet by participating in the ICOC/ICC.
If Kip had a big booty AND were not duping, pressuring, guilting, browbeating seekers of Christ, maybe Anonymous 9-4-14 would have a point.Delete
Who are The Kardashians? Do they case college campuses as hunting grounds for new recruits? Do they walk up to strangers and tell them how great they are and invite them to join in on fun? Do they invite nice young people to meetings every week and dictate who they will date-when and where or even marry? Do they use scripture and mind control under the same roof? No, The Kardashians do not. But, ICOC has proven to do all of these things. Very sad that this fringe cult passing as any form of Christianity, founded by a self professed Prophet in 1979, has gotten this far. I do believe this blog and others like it will help those ICOC members who want to leave as well as the families of the fallen (those families who have suffered the loss of a loved one to the IOCC).ReplyDelete
The Kardashians did not destroy my life, livelihood and future for over 15 years. However, Kip McKean and his lackeys did. And they did so through an elaborate network and system of lies and control mechanisms, all designed to shut down my brain and make me give all of my time, energy and money to the group, with all "profits" going up the pyramid to the top, where a sick and megalomaniac man sat, seeking more and more power and adulation. So embarrassing to admit that I was a part of that for so long.Delete
Sorry to hear about this. I went to to ICOC in Australia. It was quite evil. Lots of people had breakdowns after leaving this cult. Hope you are doing better. You didn't deserve the soul abuse.Delete
I agree with the all the comments above. This anonymous user from September 14 is wrong about claiming the Kardashians are the reason people's lives are in danger. SMH. The Kardashians are not the reason why the world has gone down the drain into the Matrix. But how come no one is talking about the Church of Scientology the user mentioned? Everyone is so focused on the defending the Kardashian family claiming that they didn't use mind control and brainwash people into thinking the Kim Kardashian is a goddess with the biggest butt you've ever seen and that marrying more than one man is acceptable to God. But when the Scientologists are mentioned, everyone turns the other cheek. Is David Miscavige threatening everyone to be hush hush about their Lord Xenu cult? I bet Tom Cruise is bribing everyone to bash on ICOC and ICC members so that he can make more movies to make the entertainment industry richer and steal millions out of people's pockets. I remember walking past a Church of Scientology and seeing members asking people to come inside to take a personality test. These victims dont realize that the Church expect at least $10,000 minimum paid on the spot just to read Dianetics written by a science fiction writer(L. Ron Hubbard)...oh yeah, isn't the Mormon religion founded by a self proclaimed prophet too? Mitt Romney is Mormon. He is a denominational man. 1 Corinthians 1 says that divisions are unbiblical. But what am I saying? Mitt Romney is a capitalist prophet too who also wanted to destroy the lives of all Americans by saying that Mormonism is the true religion and that Americans dont deserve healthcare. Did you know that his sidekick Paul Ryan discouraged paying taxes? He wanted to hoard millions of dollars for himself instead of paying corporate taxes. He also claimed to love God too...Wait, politicians are abusing the word of God for money?????? Where has everyone been? Why aren't the politicians evangelists then? Because they want the money more than they want God. So why isnt McKean in the media? Because David Miscavige wants the attention more and pays all ICOC/ICC haters to keep the attention away from Scientology in hopes that Lord Xenu will become the new Satan that will destroy God's kingdom. Miscavige wants you to think that McKean is Satan in order for you to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to Scientology versus a couple thousand to plant churches all over the world as stated in Matthew 28:18-20. No no no, Lord Xenu will be very upset. Maybe you should call John Travolta and see if Miscavige has tried to expose McKean...No answer back from Travolta? Thought so...ReplyDelete
I don't know much about Scientology, or even the Kardashians, for that matter. But I do know that Kip and his system destroys lives, using intimidation and manipulation to control many, and using lies large and small to justify it.Delete
I've always been curious about Scientology. A man offering a personality test on the street the other day hinted to me that he might have prayed Jesus into his heart. I've never seen that in the Bible. Isn't that a form of manipulation, too? Scientology preaching that? And yet, according to this video, over 1 billion accept this as true doctrine. Why isn't anyone protesting against this religion?
The talk sound pretty bad from her perspective, but before getting too excited about the condo and its value, remember this: Kip's dad is a retired admiral, so we don't know how much of the condo is from his savings, how much is from current and historical gifts from his family, and how much is from the churchReplyDelete
Are you a current ICC member? That would explain your obvious confusion on this matter and your desire to defend Kip McKean. The much-repeated lie all around Kip's Kingdom was that (insert whatever local leader's name here)'s expensive house and lifestyle was mostly paid for by a "wealthy relative." It's really amazing how SO MANY evangelists in the ICOC/ICC were able to live so well, and all paid for by benevolent family members that never visited church and that no-one ever knew. But then, later on it all made sense when we found out that the church was LYING and that most lead evangelists earned six-figure incomes from the church. Kip takes hundreds of thousands of dollars out of the church funds each year to pay himself for leading the system of abuse that sadly controls so many people. Kip has no need whatsoever for any help from his retired father. In fact, if you look at what even top military commanders earn, Kip's salary+benefits package is probably several times whatever his dad ever made.Delete
I am "December 17, 2014 at 9:58 PM"
I can affirm on record, what I said still is true and I have confirmed such internally.
What matters is the appearance of riding a high horse while he insists that believers increase their giving. Watch his ICC sermons. There is one where he flat out disses the NYC church (I believe it was). They have plenty of dough for their local church to more than thrive and he shot them down because they were not generously funding HIS Master Plan of Evangelising the world before Kip dies. You can here the joy evaporate that very moment. Watch his sermons. Everything he preaches bible wise is a twisting and stretching to set up the same tired points. We are being persecuted. We are the one true church. We have the true gospel. Everyone else is lost. It is sin not to tithe. It is sin to doubt Kip. It is sin to think for yourself. It is sin to have a life outside of Kips Kingdom. You must submit to Kips controlling discipline system. It's so tiring and overwhelming to just watch. SO GLAD I AM FREEEEEEEE!!!!ReplyDelete
Christians should be free. Leaders should not beat down the flock neither be lords over God's heritage as stated in 1 Peter 5:3Delete
I was a member of the London Church of Christ back in 1992/1993 and then the Manchester Church of Christ who got banned from preaching in public places because of their radicalised ideas. I can't believe the ICOC or ICC is still going. I owe all my gratitude to my dad who helped me get out of this cult. I belive in God but I don't believe in Kip McKean or should I say Thomas Wayne. His whole idea of salvation is to put money in his pocket and wow what he's accomplished is one big scam and people still believe in him today 2015. It's sad, very sad that people believe that if they don't believe in Kip McKean's word their salvation is at risk and shame on you Thomas Wayne.ReplyDelete
"It's sad, very sad that people believe that if they don't believe in Kip McKean's word their salvation is at risk and shame on you Thomas Wayne." Kip no longer leads the churches he is a part of however I would love to speak with a member who BELIEVES the quoted region above. I feel that discussion would be fascinating. I doubt a disciple (NO MATTER THE CHURCH) thinks like this.Delete
It's probably worth nearer to the $1,000,000 now https://www.redfin.com/CA/Marina-Del-Rey/13700-Marina-Pointe-Dr-90292/unit-803/home/8126555#property-detailsReplyDelete
The house of the high priest where Jesus was tried on the night of his betrayal.ReplyDelete
The house of a typical poor 1st century jewish family
Kip McKean's house
It breaks my heart to see you this way, brother. I'm praying for you. Peace be with you. God blessReplyDelete
Jesus is Lord!ReplyDelete
To those who say that Kip's condo "isn't luxurious" or that "650K is a good deal in LA", consider the following:ReplyDelete
(1) How many R&F members of Kip's church live in $650K homes? (Remember, these are the people who are *truly* sacrificing to financially support the church and the leaders' lifestyles).
(2) A cursory search of any real estate site will show that there are plenty of condos in the LA area way under 650K (just maybe not in ultra-chic neighborhoods like MDR).
(3) Wasn't Jesus a "man of the people"? Didn't he spend most of his time in common settings with the unwashed masses? Didn't he claim to be "the servant of all"? How then does Kip reconcile his lifestyle choices with Jesus's example?
(4) I've visited friends in Kip's building; even if the apartments themselves are small, the building/neighborhood is indeed "luxurious" with its own spa, fitness center, pool, rooftop deck, concierge/doorman, and marina/ocean views from the apartment units.
I, too, invested more than a dozen years in the ICoC and I (still) feel your pain. When the Kreite letter came out and we had the wave of change in the ICoC, I was in Minneapolis. Having never been officially in "leadership", I knew that the letter would have severe repercussions. It turned out worse than I thought it would. Pillars of our church disappeared almost overnight. While I initially harbored deep resentment about those that left, a very wise friend of mine - who HAD been in "leadership" - provided some much needed insight: leaders had way more blood on their hands than I did. How they processed their realization of what they had been a part of was really their issue, not mine.ReplyDelete
I fell out of favor with my leadership a few years later and left the church after a stint on the board of directors. That experience really opened my eyes regarding how leaders were compensated. Of course, it was always touted that the leaders COULD have gone into the private sector and made WAY MORE money so we ought to applaud and revere their "sacrifice" of being in the ministry. Well, a six figure income is hardly a sacrifice. Especially when you've got members that are single parents, disabled/special needs, and otherwise financially strapped. Of particular consternation to me was the housing allowance that enabled leaders to live in the fanciest suburbs in the nicest apartments / houses. I was in favor of the church purchasing a parsonage in lieu of the housing allowance for the evangelist. This way, the church would have an asset and a place to conduct business rather than renting office space and such. Also, the parsonage would have been IN THE CITY LIMITS; not in a suburban enclave that reeks of privilege and 'upward mobility'.
I'm glad I found your blog and I hope that you - and others negatively impacted by the ICoC and its other "branches" - find healing and peace.
I agree. My friend and I were in the cult and on a unemployment income of $150 US a week he would have to give $20. He often didn't have money for food.Delete
I saw/heard Kip M at one of these big conversations in SF in 1985. At the ripe old age of 20 and a brand new Christian I smelled snake oil. I.can't believe 30 years later he's still peddling his followers this distortion of the gospel and they are still buying it. If you are following this man stop it...follow Christ, Read your bible, Kip M and his teachings are not found there.ReplyDelete
You sound like someone who has bought into 20th century Christianity. Ironically, not found in the Bible.Delete
Any one?where do you go to church after ICOCReplyDelete
As Panteras Porno mora de paredes com uma mulher dessa e um verdadeiro tormnto, a safada sabe que su vizinho fica olhando ela todo dia ali ela para provocar o taradinho coloca um miro short que fia om a bunda toda a mostra. Ate que o dia o cara não aguentou a exibição dessa danadinha e dsceu correndo de encontro om ela e não deu outra ela tambm fazia isso a espera de uma piroca d su vizinho. o dia d chegou ntçao foi aquela foda maravilhosa com essa danadinha muito boa. Ali msmo no quintal os dois fuderam muito gostoso.ReplyDelete
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I went to the winter meeting this past December 17 2017 and it was crazy when I heard that together all the California churches gathered millions of dollars. I don't exactly remember the number but I do know that I was shocked. I felt like a fish out of water. The leader of the California international Christian Churches is Tim Kernan and he talked that day and it was supposed to be a bible study lecture and ended up like a bunch of his belief and improv speech. I looked up the website and found it to be true. I know it is true because I have family memebers that owned land and when I search their lands my family members names are listed. Anyways giving to god is not the same as giving to a institution. If the church was the kingdom of god then the money wouldn't be asked or it would be given to the members. It is writen in the bible that th kingdom of god is within us. Also teaches that the church is the people. So if your giving to the church,shouldn't you be giving it to your memebers aka your brothers and sisters and Not soley the leaders? Are the leaders the complete church? No. A body without a leg can not walk. They want to imitated the first century church yet they are not. They are the modern day church. If they were to imitate then the tithing would be gather with food to feed the priest. They would also have already steped into North Korea to teach the word of god. I mean they as in kip and the other leaders. Just as John was in jail for his belief.it sounds crazy but they never really live up to their hype. There a institution. Only in modern day can a church turn into an institution. I don't believe the leaders would do the work of god if it required such sacrifice and if they didn't get paid. It is a sect and their is nothing wrong with that because people aren't getting physicaly hurt.However many people are getting spiritual hurt. Go on their Facebook live page and see hpw they pick and choose bible verses out of their context and apply it to their message they want you to believe. Look at their 5 core convictions. It states that discipleship is a command of god. No where in the bible does god command us to be controlled by a disciple.He wants us to love him with free will. If your a discipler then your asked to be god behind a Christian to correct them and guide them to righteous. It is unbiblical to have disciplship relationships. God wants us to have teachers. Does our school teachers go into our lifes,or do they simply teach the word. I wonder if I would be considered saved if I don't give a cent to their church but do everything else. You can't even be in the body of Christ sometimes it is hard to pay for everything they ask. Every event has a price tag. If you don't have money then your asked to borrow. Why do they meet and require you pay to be part of the body of the church. When did Jesus ever do this? When did it ever occur in the bible? Thw first century church celebrate passover yet the ICC doesnt. Why is it that certain asspects of the church isn't imitated? Why aren't hompless people reached out and their main target is college students?lack of money perhaps? Anyways the point is that the ICC has culture belifs that doesn't exist in the bible. Ex they believe that they arethe only church raised to heaven after death. Remember the verse is christ divided?No!ReplyDelete
Hello SOMEONE: I'll address your points, line for line because some of these are good questions others may be wondering. Please do not read my answers and believe I am upset, attacking or anything other than lovingly telling you the truth of each circumstance. =DDelete
Let's get started:
----" when I heard that together all the California churches gathered millions of dollars"
Indeed, it was about 2 million.
-----"Anyways giving to god is not the same as giving to a institution"
Correct, but that is NOT what we are doing here.
----"shouldn't you be giving it to your memebers aka your brothers and sisters and Not soley the leaders?"
Actually, the leaders are merely the collectors. The distribution to the worldwide churches occurs the following week based on budgets. Have you researched the needs to the foreign churches by chance? It's quite staggering.
-----"Are the leaders the complete church?"
No, they are just part of the church God has given a certain role to.
----"A body without a leg can not walk."
True, but they could hop! Ok, I digress.
----"They want to imitated the first century church yet they are not. They are the modern day church. If they were to imitate then the tithing would be gather with food to feed the priest."
If you want to make an academic point, be sure to have a sound argument. Tithing is pre-law, but still honored in imitation of Jesus due to His status as the high priest of Melchizedek. Additionally, the only reason food was brought to the priests was because they lived in the temple and had no other bills. It isn't functional to bring food to the evangelist of the church, but omit the 21st century needs of his modern but humble living. No modern preacher could function maximally in the 1st world without internet, phones, cars, etc. Additionally, there are daily hygienic needs that are not "grain or cattle" so then what. It is easier to now offer a fiscal tithe, than a food tithe because it allows for allotment based on need.
----"They would also have already steped into North Korea to teach the word of god."
No sir, the spirit blocks disciples from certain regions of the World. It happened to Paul and it's happening to us. There are no publicly open Christians of any denomination in NK; it would be a crime.
----"I don't believe the leaders would do the work of god if it required such sacrifice and if they didn't get paid"
It sounds like you don't know the leaders then because MANY of them gave up 6 and 7 figure incomes to make a teacher salary to do this. Others gave up ALL income because they have family funds. Additionally, Tim Kernan has publicly stated, if you are not willing to DIE for the mission, a horrible, torturous, gruesome death, you cannot be a leader. So far, you questions don't seem like ones from a researched individual if I am being so bold.Delete
-----"However many people are getting spiritual hurt."
70x7 , that's no reason to fall away or not let the Bible be your standard as so many have made the excuse in doing.
----"Go on their Facebook live page and see hpw they pick and choose bible verses out of their context and apply it to their message they want you to believe."
Let me know who does this, i'll address it since Matthew 18 doesn't mean anything to you. Do you realize, you post violates Galatians 5:19-21? Aren't you cherry-picking too right now?
----"No where in the bible does god command us to be controlled by a disciple"
Sounds like you didn't quite grasp all those submission, teaching, imitation, humility, and learner scriptures during the 5CC study.
-----"It is unbiblical to have disciplship relationships."
Then I guess the Apostles, Paul, Timothy, James, Peter, etc are all unBiblical. You should tell Jesus that His discipleship idea isn't in the Bible. ps- Yes it is, and it's clear as glass. I'm wondering if this is a joke post now.
----"I wonder if I would be considered saved if I don't give a cent to their church but do everything else"
You wouldn't be saved. NOT because you wouldn't give money, but because you lack the heart to "give up everything." If you hang on to even ONE thing in the world, you are looking back while on the plow like Lot's wife. Jesus says then, you aren't fit for the kingdom. On a side note, with a post like this, I hope you don't actually believe you are saved. With the heart it takes to write this kind of slander, you are indeed separated from the cross. No disciple could write something this false, hateful and slanderous. The Holy Spirit would freak out.
-----You can't even be in the body of Christ sometimes it is hard to pay for everything they ask.Delete
That's why the admin's and shepherds help with fiscal planning. Be humble, get help. All young people need it.
-----"Why do they meet and require you pay to be part of the body of the church. When did Jesus ever do this?"
Dude, everything was free back then. Don't compare socieies and try to make a point; it just makes you look emotional and irresponsible.
----"Thw first century church celebrate passover yet the ICC doesnt."
Please do a quiet time once restored on the passover. You lack understanding WHAT the passover is. hint: It wasn't a 1-time neat event with the Jews , but a foreshadowing/prophecy of Jesus.
-----"Why aren't hompless people reached out"
This question has a series of long winded answers. The answer can be summarized: The church can't fiscally or logistically handle them in mass, nor are majority prepared to study the Bible. There is a long-term plan for this however similar to the Icoc. Stay tuned.
-----"and their main target is college students?"
One word: Imitation ; Please have a QT on the Lecture Hall of Tyrannus.
-----" Ex they believe that they arethe only church raised to heaven after death."
Yet another example of how much you didn't pay attention in church. Mike Patterson, Kip McKean, Tim Kernan, Jeremy Ciaramella, etc ALL have publicly denied such teachings and if I personally EVER heard such nonsense come out of a disciple's mouth, I'd rebuke them on the spot.
-----"Remember the verse is christ divided?No!"
True, Christ is no divided, but people who CALL themselves Christian, ARE DIVIDED. Again, if you believe you are saved, and I believe I am saved, only one of us is going to make the cut because we have mutually exclusive doctrines.
I live to give up everything, do anything and adhere FULLY to the Bible.....you on the otherhand, decided that SLANDER ( a sin that keeps you out of heaven (Gal 5:19-21) is a good idea. Christ, may not divide, but you certainly are trying to do just that. Which, is also a sin that leads you to not be saved.
Friend, I admit, I came for you in this post. I did so because progressively, your logic, accuracy and words got worse and worse. They lacked love. At the end of the day, this blog lacks love. It will mean nothing on judgment day. It's hosted by an atheist whom was my brother once upon a time.
I deeply urge you to repent, get in the light and realize unless you stop functioning on your feelings and sentiment, God will release you to your sin and this Earth will be the only heaven, you'll ever know.
Satan will deceive the masses as an angel of light and people go to what their itching ears want to hear. Unfortunately, it is now sadly the very community of ICC devoted but deceived believers that have fallen into the hands of this quite talented con man. Do not study God’s Word to corroborate what this deceiver teaches, because the end result will be a rabbit hole that will destroy your faith. Open your minds and hearts to learn what God says because His teachings of love are the cornerstone for everything else in the New Testament, and the legalisms and constraints placed upon you were never the true teachings of Jesus, but of this con man who has destroyed the faith of thousands and taken for himself the aggrandizement and self-glorifications that are only and ever meant for the real Jesus. Take time to get to know the heart of Jesus and forget about this very clever con artist...Tom or Kip or whatever he wants to call himself these days. This man and the entourage around him are not of God. Remember to be the Berean that looks for God yourself without pre-bias of what you are the of you are supposed to believe. Speaking from first-hand experience, give God a chance outside of the spectacle of Kip’s teachings. “Look at all the great things I did in your name, Jesus,” and He will say “Get away from me. I never knew you.”Delete
It is obvious that you have never observed the life and doctrine of "Tom" but have ironically been "deceived" yourself to believe the sentiment and lies of those around you. I say this in confidence because if you were someone close enough to observe "Tom" I would've seen it.
Sadly, your attempt to call others to be a Berean backfired because had you been honest about your desire to return to the world, you would've gotten the help and answers from leadership to appease these concerns. If even ONE thing you addressed was actually accurate, people like myself wouldn't be here.
Please repent of this wicked slander. If you actually desired to follow the Bible, you would've done 3 things: 1- Realized you are in salvation-level sin with this post. 2- Followed matthew 18. 3- Asked the admin team to open the books so you can see how selfless this ministry is fiscally.
I urge you to get in the light. Please repent.
Since you can’t come out from being “Anonymous”, the clear implication is that you are either part of his entourage or the master con artist, himself. The untold amount of damage and literally spiritual rape incurred on those that followed this self-proclaimed prophet’s cult control over his former deceived masses will implode this attempt at a movement just as it did before. God will not be mocked and will hold him accountable for all of hundreds that he directly impacted and caused to stumble in their faith. He has yet to show signs of true humility and repentance for those actions to this day, and he continues to perpetuate this mental brainwashing and mess on others. Public repentance will ever and only be his only recourse to gain any recourse for personal redemption. He needs to take the veil off of his own eyes, but it’s only God that will once-again have to force his hand on this one. You are either part of his entourage to defend his every action, regardless of his continued lack of humility, or you are the deceiver himself and refuse to take a good, hard look at the tremendous harm you are directly responsible for through your extreme Pharisaical lteachings of legalism and financial sacrifices toward self-gain and materialism clearly called out in the past, and yet not dealt with to this day. In other words, those that know your past will never trust the motives of your heart again given the clear current signs that you continue in deceit of others and even in justification and deceit of yourself. That is a form of narcissism only God will be able to show you. Take your own advice and please repent from using repentance as a manipulative tool to control others and to ensure your exceptional financial well-being.Delete
I do not desire the spam affiliated with logging in on such a dead, bot-loaded blog.
But , on topic, no. Just no. I already addressed all those things. Your opinions are from a sick heart. A sick heart that was made sick from another sick heart. Walk away from your sentiment and feelings and see what the Bible teaches. These sins have blinded you to what you are doing.
Again though, I really need you to realize something, NO MATTER your feelings toward "Tom" , you need to follow scripture. Your postings are in violation of Galatians 5. This is a salvation issue. If you don't repent, this mis-directed bitterness, will cause you to be impossible to get restored according to Hebrews 6/10:26.
Repent, and submit to this scripture:
So in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone. Let them go! For if their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God.
The salaries of the leaders is no where near "exceptional financial well-being." That's laughable.
I for one, make a 1/7th of what I was making in the world. If you'd like to meet to discuss the finances of the church, I'd be open to coffee. I think you'll find the actual salary/pay-scale in the ICC to be humbling to your beliefs.
On this is site is revealed so much judgment and hatred of one brother for the other.ReplyDelete
For our understanding how to live with a Judas that will never repent, Christ chose a Judas (one out of twelve) knowing Judas was a devil that would never repent (John 6:70). We are not to judge the Judas among us. Christ chose a Judas to show us some of our members will never repent but we are to agape love the one who appears to be a Judas, he or she just might repent.
Don't be deceived, you know this to be true the media of the world and the most wicked of devils call anyone that is truly spiritual, fanatical, the fundamental teacher and worker of Bible truth will be called by the disciples of the devil as a "Cult." I am ninety years old next month. A life time of Bible study and from the ancient languages. Ask your self, Where is my agape love for my brethren? Where is the genuine benevolent care for the welfare of our God, our brethren even for our enemies?
I was -not a member of the ICOC, because I know that my God did not start any kind of any Church, yet they of the ICOC, all has obeyed the plan of God and our God has added them to his Ekklesia and not to any kind of any Church. So they were indeed my dearest and my most agape beloved brethren. Yet I knew because of false Bible translations, they of the ICOC had absolutely no understanding of the warfare of Ekklesia our God has established to keep us from hating and from dividing one from the other.
In the parking lot of the Wilturn Theater, I tried to warn Kip without allowing the conduct of Ekklesia and home worship to stop the thousands of our weak brethren from dividing, sliding back and falling away; "The blame of falling away was put on God; "God is pruning just pruning." I warned kip, without Ekklesia the Boston movement will split and splinter as do all that do not allow the established Ekklesia to protect to keep the Saints of God united and from dividing. Night and day my heart grieves with tears, for the loss of togetherness of this great movement and only because they were passive in conduct as a Church and not once did they begin the fight of hot militant warfare of Ekklesia that stops all division.
Cultish absolutely, Showing a great need for Ekklesia. Ignorance or just plain lack of understanding yes just showing the great need for Ekklesia. False teaching and Out and out lies yes showing the need for Ekklesia. See this free Ekklesia Bible Web site www.ekklesiabible.com
You seem to have a deep rooted misunderstanding of the church and even the Greek you seemingly through around. Let me know if you'd ever like to sit down and discuss this. I'd love to hear out WHY you feel this way and how you define "church."Delete
Even your own children don't support your ministry because they know it's a scam. I pray one day you will repent and truly seek God through the help of the Holy Spirit, that's my pray for you.ReplyDelete
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What an ignorantly framed statement. You clearly weren't friends with his children nor were around when they left. Their leaving wasn't due to some systemic issue and even if it was, they'd have returned/moved on to ANY restorationist church had that been the case. You really should refrain from commenting since you obviously lack accurate information.Delete
Not sure what happened with all the spammy comments, but just wanted to come to post that I looked up the condo on zillow, and it's value is now estimated to be over $1.2 million, and it's still owned by Kip and Elana's family trust.ReplyDelete
Who cares? Things increase in value when real-estate inflation & normal inflation is out of control. The dude lives in a mid-tier 2-bedroom apartment on a fault-line but is rarely even home. I've literally driven by his house; it's not that impressive. People are just overdramatic for scenery & willing to waste their money. You act like it's a sin to have made a good investment to sell later in the future for retirement or missions. I wish I got a piece of that overpriced nonsense too!Delete