Guest contributor: Former ICC evangelist, Victor M. Gonzalez, Jr.
Proverbs 18:17 "In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines."
Many of you have asked very valid questions recently. Where do I start?
I was fired on August 1, 2014 for my convictions. This was after Thomas (Kip) apologized for every single accusation that he had brought against me. Kyle Bartholomew was there; so was Joan Bartholomew, his wife, as were Elena (Kip's wife) and Aurora (my wife). You see, I don't agree with double standards: applying scriptures to some and then not to others. I don't agree with manipulation.
Thomas (Kip) has asked and lied about asking people to write letters against me (amongst the latest confirmed are Jared McGee and Rachel McGee who lead the Mexico City ICC). When Thomas (Kip) presented these letters to me, he simply said, "These are totally unsolicited. I didn't ask for them - they just sent them to me - look at what they are saying about you." At the GLC, when asked about his letter, Jared answered, "Yes. Thomas (Kip) asked for our input and wanted us to write a letter about you guys."
This is manipulation at its best.
I don't believe in the control that the leadership asserts or tries to assert on people. Opinions are opinions and advice is advice. All of you who know me, my courageous wife and sacrificial kids, you know our love for people. I have been fasting, praying and allowing God to guide me.
I told Thomas (Kip) on August 1, the day he fired me, "The ministry is not a job - it's a calling. You didn't call me - God did, and I will be faithful to His calling." I am not interested in slandering my brothers in the ICOC or anyone; I don't want to focus on slandering people. I want to focus on loving people. I want to be known for my love. I want to surround myself with people that want to love other people into the Kingdom.
I moved to Portland in the spring of 2004 because I saw there a new direction, no longer the overbearing focus on numbers, money, people and the manipulation thereof. Thomas (Kip) apologized for this type of behavior in the early Portland days.
Did he lie to us? Or is he falling back to his old sinful pattern?
Then on Tuesday, August 12, after the conference (GLC) I told Thomas (Kip) that I was grateful for the conference and that this was my last service with the group. I told him I was starting a new Church, a new Hope - a Church built on true righteousness.
He then said, "You will be marked and disfellowshipped."
To which I said, "Do what you need to do, my brother."
Besides my wife, father, and one other person, I had not made this decision public to anyone as I had not wanted to cause peoples' hearts to question. My wife and I have been attempting to bring up concerns and work out issues we have seen within the leadership for many years now. Going into the GLC, we had both felt hopeful, but after witnessing various alarming situations, we prayed and decided we could no longer continue worshiping with the ICC.
Out of respect to Thomas (Kip), I waited till the end of the conference to inform him of this. The VIOLENCE that was shown towards me was unacceptable. Thomas (Kip) grabbed my arm and tried to pull me and after he continued to do so, I asked him to please let me go.
He was yanking my arm as he said, "You're getting outta here." I told him I had paid for the conference and I had just as much right to be there as him. Then Cory Blackwell grabbed me and I advised him to let me go because I felt threatened and attacked. He let me go and said, "I'm calling security" to which I said "I'm going to call the police, you and Kip have attacked me."
My father then started hitting my chest and shoving me as he tauntingly said, "Call the cops! Go ahead, call them!" This kind of behavior is absolutely ridiculous and ungodly. Yet sadly, this is the "Leader of the Movement" and a "World Sector Leader" and a "Church Leader."
I don't understand why Kip is behaving in this way towards me and my family when this is what he did twice already in his own life; it truly is hypocritical. He started the ICOC out of the mainline Churches of Christ. Then, the ICC out of the ICOC because he had a belief and conviction that things were wrong. This is exactly what I'm doing.
I do not condemn nor look down on any disciple of Jesus no matter where they worship, but for conscience-sake can no longer personally be a part of the ICC. This marking and disfellowshippment of myself and my wife is not Biblical at all - it's POLITICAL. I have been disfellowshipped and marked for being decisive not "divisive" - Thomas (Kip) is the one dividing me from my brothers and sisters.
This last week he tried to prohibit my mother from watching her own grandchildren. This is so sad. It is pathetic and controlling. It is not Biblical, but tactical. Do I not have the right to choose where to worship God with my family? Is this not what we did when we joined from the ICOC? Thomas (Kip) has always said that people have a right to choose where to worship; that it was not a matter of salvation, but proclamation.
I am not teaching false doctrine; I am not drawing people away from God. I am encouraging people to draw near to God and away from man-made religion. I trust that God will provide for all my family's needs.
It truly would have been a lot easier to stay put and get a paycheck with a lavish lifestyle. But I chose God and his truth. Even now, I'm so grateful for all who have helped us thus far on our spiritual journey.
I know there are many unanswered questions. Please feel free to contact me for clarification on anything you desire.
"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," Matthew 5:44
I love everyone. I have no anger or bitterness in my heart, only a sadness for the lack of love and lack of true righteousness. I am fervently praying for us all.
Reprinted with permission.
Connect with Victor M. Gonzalez, Jr. at: https://www.facebook.com/demonpunisher or by email at firstname.lastname@example.org.
Read about my run-in with Kip McKean and Victor M. Gonzalez Jr's dad here: Kip McKean & Friends Lie, Steal, and Threaten - Why I Left City of Angels Church
Read about my run-in with Kip McKean and Victor M. Gonzalez Jr's dad here: Kip McKean & Friends Lie, Steal, and Threaten - Why I Left City of Angels Church
To bad people don't look for the real truth. 2014 years roman controlled Christianity. The Vatican runs the entire show and who ever controls the printing presses controls the knowledge. Folks don't be fooled the info is there,but you need to dig deepReplyDelete
Not sure I really understand your comment in context, but thanks for reading.Delete
Just someone throwing haphazard comments about the Catholic faith around as if they know what they're talking about..Delete
Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast #48. Have some context.Delete
Victor you and kip have one thing in comman. You both only tell half the story. I know what you really did and what really happen and it all makes sense now. By the way I'm not a member of icc, and I hate being lied to.Delete
What really happened??Delete
What type of church is the spirit directing you to start. I am a disciple in the ICOC many of us feel called to a house church model of worship. Would you be interested?Delete
Typical Kip if he is not in direct control of it be it a person ( Vic Jr ) or group ( ICOC ) he demonizes and slanders it, showing his true nature as control freak. Kip is like Satan, a control freak pretending to be a man of God or in Satan's case pretending to be God. What he can't control he hates, be it any other church or anyone who he can't manipulate to do his will, Kip is selfish and pure evil on so many levels.ReplyDelete
Helena, you hit the nail on the head. Kip wants to be in control. If he is not the one calling the shots, he is not happy. In fact, this is a characteristic of narcissists. For a narcissist, it is only natural that everyone should do what the narcissist tells them to do. Anyone who dares "rebel" by choosing his own way, and not obeying the narcissist, beware! His wrath shall be unleashed!Delete
I was a member of the ICOC and ICC for ten years and know Kip and Vic Jr. very well as much of my time in the organization was spent in leadership. Although I'm not a big Kip fan, I am certainly not a Vic Jr. supporter either. When it comes to the quality of their character, both men are spitting images of each other-manipulative, lovers of self, incessant talkers, boastful, proud, greedy, slanderous, deceitful (read II Timothy 3:2), you get the picture. Not surprisingly, these are the same traits shared by many if not all of Kip's leaders.Delete
With that being said, it does not surprise me that Vic would pull a stunt like this. Yes, it is a stunt. Vic often bragged that he would be the next "leader of the movement" and when he wasn't selected, he threw a temper tantrum. However, Vic is not entirely to blame for his actions. Kip is notorious for flattery, dangling carrots, stroking egos, etc. to get people to do what he wants. And the likes of Vic Jr. and Vic Sr., Mike Patterson, DJ Comisford, Carlos Mejia, Corey Blackwell, Kyle Bartholemew, Michael Williamson, Tim Kernan, etc. took the bait. Many of these men proclaim that they joined Kip because their ICOC "church was dying" or "became luke warm..." when the absolute truth is that they were cajoled, given titles, offered jobs or the promise of a job. Many will sell their soul for money and power. These men are not an exception.
I caution those that are Vic Jr. sympathizers, if Vic was selected a World Sector Leader (WSL) he would still be enthusiastically peddling Kip's doctrine (ICC the one true church, First Principles indoctrination, claiming that those not part of "the movement" are not saved, slandering ICOC members, etc.). Vic and Kip are sadly cut from the same cloth. Ironically, through his own actions Vic has shown himself to be Kip's #1 disciple.
Thank you for your comments. I'd be interested in communicating with you more if you'd like to send me a message through the "Contact Me" box over on the right side of the page.Delete
The above mentioned men were nobodies in the ICOC desperately wanting to be somebodies and when they were unsuccessful in cracking into the upper echelon of ICOC leadership, they saw Kip and the ICC as the next best alternative. If they were on staff in the ICOC, they were let go and unable to find gainful employment due to their lack of job skills after years of sitting on their butts doing nothing but collecting a paycheck from their adoring disciples. So joining Kip was their opportunity to once again lay stake on a steady paycheck for doing NADA. Sources tell me that an ICOC evangelist in San Diego was let go after 20 years in the ministry and guess what?!? He's decided to join Kip. Kind of sounds like Blaise Feumbia who signed the ICOC unity letter against Kip and after Blaise was fired from the ICOC , he suddenly suddenly had a change of heart for the Kip and is now on staff in the ICC.Delete
There is a snowball chance in hell that Vic Jr, DJ Comisford, and Mike Patterson would ever be appointed evangelists in the ICOC due to their immaturity and gross lack of integrity. Sensing their desperateness for power (and a title) they were prime fish for Kip. By the way, Mike Patterson has begun to publicly claim that the church "never taught we were the only ones saved." Really?!? That's news to me as the OTC doctrine was/is continually reinforced from the pulpit, First Principles Study Series, and the hard line talks with people contemplating leaving the organization. Apparently, the church is finding it hard to recruit and retain people who buy into the McKeanism doctrine so there is a lot of this type of back peddling going on.Delete
Corey Blackwell, Carlos Mejia, Lou Jack Martinez, Vic Sr and several others joined Kip for no other reason than a paycheck. None of these "mighty men of God" decided to jump ship while still on staff in the ICOC. Why?!? Because of the $$$. It was only after they were let go from the ICOC, could not find steady employment in the real world, and in desperate need for a regular paycheck that they "courageously joined the new movement." Yep...really brave guys (sarcasm).
"And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." 2 Peter 2:3
To Anonymous 09/11:Delete
"Sources tell me that an ICOC evangelist in San Diego was let go after 20 years in the ministry and guess what?!? He's decided to join Kip."
Yep, it's just a matter of time before Kip announces the hiring of the Peacocks (formerly with the San Diego ICOC). It will then be shamefully obvious to everyone why they decided to defect to the ICC. It's always about the $$$.
The majority of the ICC leadership is comprised of kids under the age of 25. Many of whom were tapped as evangelists and women's ministry leaders at the ripe old age of 20-22. Kip is fond of hiring young ministry couples for two reasons: 1. They will do whatever Kip tells them, too. 2. They're cheap labor. It's rumored that the ICC AMS ministry leaders make almost 100K a year while those twenty years their junior, doing exactly the same job, make a fraction of that amount.Delete
I'm not a huge Kip McKean fan and I do not agree with a lot of things but no church on the planet is any better. Rise Ministries and it's leader Vic Jr. and Aurora Gonzalez (authors of this site) are no better or even worse. Full of bitterness, greed and the love of control. After many years of knowing both Kip and Vic Jr. (i have been a leader in the ICC and helped the team of administrators for the ICC in the past, so i know where all the money was going) Truthfully I never really saw Kip as a lover of money or greedy, prideful (but who isnt)... Vic Jr. on the other hand has told me himself he wouldnt go lead the Mexico church unless he got paid 100K, every single time we talked he talked about money and getting rich. For the past several years he has been taking advantage of a millionaire member of the ICC and now is living off of him, if he didnt have this guy in his back pocket he still would be in the ICC. Once this guy realizes Vic Jr is using him for his house and money Vic Jr will be back in the ICC. I say this because everyone who is reading this site should take what he is saying with a grain of salt. Most of it is not true. Honestly it seems like VicJr. is talking about himself.Delete
Every church in the world is lead by greedy lairs.... men. I encourage everyone to put their eyes on God and His words, follow God no matter who the leader of your church is. Thats what I'm doing now.
Many excellent points have been made above in the first several posts.Delete
Regarding the last post: Vic Jr and Aurora are not the authors of this site. Vic wrote this article on his Facebook page and then gave me permission to reprint it.
Kip won't display his love for money in the same way as others. For example, he won't walk around telling people that he needs to make however much. However, if you look at Kip's actions, he makes sure to put himself in the place where he makes the biggest paycheck of all, and lives in the best neighborhood with business executives, dines in fancy restaurants, the whole ball of wax.
Younger guys who are not yet making the big bucks may talk about it more if that is what is in their heart. I don't know that aspect of Vic Jr although his dad, Vic Sr, is absolutely a money-hungry SOB who is more than willing to lie, cheat, and steal his way to get the money he wants.
PS thanks for commenting and please visit and comment again at your leisure.
Ive been a personal friend of tim for over 14 years. I know him since he was 25 (he was teen leader) and i was 14 . I have lived with the guy, ate and worked with him accross countries. I also know many of these names you mention and i know personally Vic Jr. I do not entirely agree with what you are saying. Also know that Vic Jr has given an other letter about the money part of the problem which i know very well about. Logically speaking, what you are saying MAY BE true about his personality. BUT, you underestimate severely his potential sincerity AND the fact that he essentially completely destroyed his entire social life with two letters including his family turning his back on him. I doubt thats just a fit cause of a title.Delete
Hey I used to go to GACC (Greater Atlanta Church of Christ) and yes Mike Patterson, after leaving the Bronx Ministry was the lead evangelist there. After a while they split into two regions, North and South. Mike over the North Angel over the South. I have to say, I understand where everyone is coming from. I have seen it myself. I wasn't a "desired disciple" because my "numbers" were not up. But my cousin was a leader in the campus ministry. In my early months of being a member, I noticed my cousin stopped spending the night, and slowed down spending time with me altogether. He blamed it on school and 'kingdom work' but there were numerous disciples coming up to me asking "You guys are not REAL cousins right?" It's sad the control games and manipulation they place on young adults. We were not blood, but we grew up as family. And at the time, he was the only reachable family I had in GA.Delete
Mike Patterson was never an evangelist in Georgia. He has only been one in the ICC at FloridaDelete
The true nature of the beast is revealed, cults are run by violent psychopaths.ReplyDelete
This type of behavior should help some people who are currently on the fence see the ICC for what it truly is - a destructive cult. And Kip McKean is not the "awesome man of God" that the church / cult / business that is the ICC sells him as.Delete
Wouldn't Vic jr's church use the same format to make his church grow?.... Or would he make it a democracy? For the pyramids to work some one has to be at the top...... For it to grow people need to be pressed.....Delete
Kip is scum, but I wonder how many times Victor proclaimed Kip to be God's man and said Kip was awesome. Like every other ICC leader, it's all okay until the manipulation and control goes against them. I would not attend either of their churches.ReplyDelete
It won't be easy for Victor or the group he leads, firstly they should burn every copy of that satanic indoctrination First Principles that makes the cult and then read different bible translations so they don't get triggered by verses and words to create yet another cult. Hopefully Victor understands how he was brainwashed by the First Principles and abandons it, sadly the ICOC in some cases still use the mind control program developed by Kip. All copies of First Principles should be incinerated and shot with silver bullets. Victor like so many is both victim and when he was in the cult victim maker, praise God he is out.Delete
To Anonymous September 1, 2014 at 9:90 PM: When under mind control, we do things that we later can't believe that we could ever do. Typically, after a person leaves the ICC, he or she "repents" of the nonsense that he or she did while part of the group. I know that was the case for me (as well as for many, many others!)Delete
To AnonymousSeptember 2, 2014 at 9:28 AM: It is true, First Principles is an indoctrination tool. It is used to enable the church to gain control over the recruit, and maintain it for as long as possible. And unfortunately, as a control mechanism, it is very effective (at least on a certain percentage of the population that is exposed to it.)Delete
It takes years to recover from the damage done by the ICOC and sometimes people dont repent you just see the same bs in other parts of their lives. How many people has victor called and apologized to?Delete
To Anonymous September 5, 2014 at 3:25 PM: Yes, recovery is a slow and multi-layered process. The mind control is strong so it takes time to work through it all. I wish you full and speedy recovery, to the degree that it is possible. Not sure who Vic has talked to, but I know that I had quite a few people to apologize to after I left, including even apologizing to myself, for throwing away so much of my life on that nonsense.Delete
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Serran, thanks for commenting! Glad you were able to get out!Delete
If you ever feel lost, there is always room for you back in the ICC.
Yep cause being lost is what happens when you are a part of ICCDelete
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The cult leader is very unlikely to repent, he faked repentance in 2002 and went back to his old ways, he has a power over people that is evil and loves the power that using the First Principles mind control program gives him. It takes time to recover when you realize everything they taught is twisted to the cults advantage. I love many people I knew in the cult too, they are genuine and sincere but sadly totally unaware of how they are being used and manipulated, their sincere faith in God is being exploited by evil leaders.Delete
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Serran, I agree, there are "systematic sins," that is, the system is corrupt. I saw first-hand how lies were used when it was deemed beneficial to the organization. And it seems like it is getting worse, not better! And I also agree, top leadership conveys the attitude of using people ("plundering the Egyptians"). Doing so is actually classic narcissistic behavior.Delete
Serran, there are many paths that people take after leaving the ICC. Personally, I realized that the Bible wasn't the "Word of God" LONG before I ever stopped attending meetings with Kip's group. I have nothing against healthy churches, in fact, I still frequently attend religious services. Just trying to take a stand against the false and harmful religion like the example you mention where people's privacy is invaded for the purile entertainment of ministry staff as they listen in on private phone conversations (of course, under the false guise that it is to "help" a person). Narcissists like those at the tip-top leadership of the ICC believe that they are at the center of the universe, which means that anything they do is automatically "right." And I'd even argue that an important step of leadership training in this group is to develop this same narcissism and sense of entitlement in its leaders.Delete
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If you knew all of the sins that Kip himself has committed, it maybe becomes even more ironic that they would convene an emergency midweek over whatever you did. Even more ironic is how patently illegal actions such as sexual abuse and statutory rape by members and leaders has been covered up and legal authorities have not been correctly notified. Just some of the double standards mentioned in this article by Vic Jr.Delete
The cult leader is unlikely to repent and Kip is a cult leader but so is Victor. Don't be so anxious to see Kip fail that you prop up everyone who leaves Kip. Some of Kip's mini mes were worse than he was.Delete
Well, the same could be said about me being a cult leader, as I held leadership positions in the cult that is the ICC. However, people can change, as I did when I left the church that I had pledged never to leave. My hope is that anyone who leaves the bondage of the ICC is making a change for the better.Delete
Thomas is psychoticReplyDelete
I hope Victor has stopped teaching the First Principles tool.
Did you mean "psychopathic"? From Wikipedia: "Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/) (or sociopathy /ˈsoʊsiəˌpæθi/) is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. It may also be defined as a continuous aspect of personality, representing scores on different personality dimensions found throughout the population in varying combinations." From my observation, Kip would certainly fall well into that spectrum. Lack of empathy and remorse? Bold and disinhibited behavior? Um, yes, yes and yes!Delete
Kip called me the only time I ever talked with the man. Yup he did 9 min of talking and I did 30 seconds of talking. Some men like the sound of their own voice.ReplyDelete
I got a call like that from Kip in 2005 and was very flattered. I did not realize at the time that Kip was going to use me for all I was worth to him, suck me dry financially and emotionally, and then try to crumple me up and throw me away like an old dishrag the moment I had a difference of opinion with him.Delete
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Some people get bitter, although "bitter" is a thought-stopping ICC keyword that is employed for ANY and ALL former members that the ICC leadership wishes to discredit. You were not the first, nor will you be the last "bitter" former member who got screwed over by the manipulative, corrupt and dishonest top leadership of the ICC.Delete
What are Kip's motives exactly? Does he genuinely believe hes serving Christ? or are his TRUE intentions to do with money and power?ReplyDelete
This is worrying
Motives are difficult to know with certainty. However, if you look at Kip's actions, they always seem to place him in the center of both money and power. Christ at his core was poor and humble, two things that Kip has outright refused for himself. So that might be your answer right there.Delete
I have noticed that some Leaders in the ICC are imitating kip.Delete
Quite creepy indeed.
Haha yes, it's a bit ironic that one of Kip's (former) leaders pulls a "Kip." Of course, Kip only likes it when he himself is the one doing it. And each person who leaves the ICC is lost income for Kip so everything aligns for Kip not to like it.Delete
I believe every word in this site is true.ReplyDelete
Possible ways you could improve your blog (make it better):
--> Possibly point out some of the good points/experiences you had in the church and then counter argue it. Then make an overalll conclusion. (to show your not one sided)
--> Provide web links describing why their doctrine is false.
Interesting to note that the most common response i get when explaining why the ICC is a cult ---> " but they are doing what the bibles says".
Thanks for the feedback. I'm working on material about why the ICC doctrine is false and how First Principles is misleading and designed for control, and other ways that the ICC is not "doing what the bible says."Delete
When would you have this material available, I've been interested in proving the First Principles wrong, so I have some kind of argument.Delete
Unfortunately, I know myself, and I work very slowly. However, for now you might want to check out the following 2 links: http://www.reveal.org/library/theology/dandersn2.htmlDelete
There are good things in all churches. it goes back to jesus said the kingdom is within. the passage says you new the holy scirptures from infancy. infants don't read. we are all christs we never left him only in our minds and deep pray and meditation and throw off the world and get back to owns own personal thinking about god. the bible is not to be taken literal its a guide to holinessReplyDelete
I agree that the Bible is not to be taken literally. Understanding this is an important step towards being freed from the control of the ICC, which uses the Bible to make it's members sacrifice as much as possible, with the main result being to benefit top ICC leadership, all under the guise of "the Bible says."Delete
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Serran, Victor can also be reached by email at: email@example.com.Delete
The DEVIL IS IN HIM. I go to the ICC and i believe these are LIES !! VIctor is in TOTAL SIN! TOTAL SIN!!!!ReplyDelete
Friend, your response is so over the top that I am not sure if you are even for real or if you are mentally stable. You have certainly fallen for Kip's stories hook, line and sinker. I hope for your benefit that you are able to begin to recognize, and then escape, the mind control that you are currently under. Please continue to look around this site to find out other (100% true) things that your leaders don't want you to know.Delete
I don't think his response is serious because it sounds like hes trolling.Delete
"The fable of Christ and his twelve apostles...is a parody of the sun and the twelve signs of the Zodiac, copied from the ancient religions of the Eastern world.... Every thing told of Christ has reference to the sun. His reported resurrection is at sunrise, and that on the first day of the week; that is, on the day anciently dedicated to the sun, and from thence called Sunday..."
Thomas Paine, The Complete Religious and Theological Works of Thomas Paine (382)
"...the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
Thomas Jefferson, The Adams-Jefferson Letters (594)
the bible is not what you think we were all under mind control techniques.
Good points! I will add some points on top of the forementioned statements.
"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. "
Really? the earth is fixed?? Well.... Um... The orbit? The sun?
Even the Bible claims that sun rises or sets. Well to be fair, we say these things. But if you think about it, sun never moves. It is fixed. And something called Earth moves.
The Bible claims that the earth has been for 6000 thousand years. Well, if you look up Genesis 1 and claim it is true, that basically imply that we coexisted with dinosaurs. I'm pretty sure that dinosaurs would have dominated and eaten us all, not the other around... They are gigantic and strong!!!!
While arguments for and against the Bible are slightly outside the focus of this blog, my weight falls squarely in the camp of the Bible doubters. Were sick people really demon possessed? We have scientific explanations for all of those things now. In this day and age, we are supposed to believe that Jesus was curing bacterial infections and other medical problems through exorcisms? It's really spirits that cause illnesses? Better let the entire medical community know about this! (Sarcasm)Delete
What you have done is very brave, commendable and sadly rare - to stand up for what is right, to hold your ground and stay righteous in word and deed - that is not easy.
I cannot imagine the pain you must have felt at the time. You didn't tolerate being bullied or cajoled by people who should know better. I'm sure one day they will know better.
You stood your ground and did what was right, even though it must have been terrifying. I wonder who you learned that from ;)
I wish I can show that same sort of courage in my life.
God bless you and your family
Victor (not the author of this site) can be reached at: firstname.lastname@example.orgDelete
Mark. Your wrong. What Victor has done is not rare. Many have done so. Many have stood up for what is right, held their ground and stayed righteous. You just never heard of them, since they were not prominant leaders. You guys need to stop putting people on pedestals.Delete
Good for Victor, but its happened hundreds of times.
email me brother email@example.comReplyDelete
Victor (not the author of this site) can be reached at: firstname.lastname@example.orgDelete
Well Viva La Revolusion Viva RiseministeriosReplyDelete
Thanks for commenting. I hope that more people, both leaders and not, will take the step away from Kip and his damaging, abusive, dishonest organization.Delete
Respect to you for telling people how it really is.ReplyDelete
Please help us get the word out. Many people are still under the grip of Kip McKean and have no idea of the evil, twisted things that happen behind closed doors in the ICC leadership in the name of God and Christ.Delete
Ed. I did my own investigation, and found out things about victor Jr. The bible teaches us to tell the whole truth any thing else is a lie. Don't trust victor, or you will just find yourself fighting God.Delete
I am not surprised that the ICC is another version of the ICOC that I was in for 24 years. While I was in the ICOC I never knew about the corruption at the top until after I left and talked to a leader that was under Kip in Boston in the late 80s - but I sure experienced the abuse as one of the rack and file members. The last paragraph below was the last straw that prompted me to leave.ReplyDelete
-I was the only one paying the bills and rent and was expected to ‘give’ in this way, any attempts to push back and I was deemed selfish and not giving like Jesus
-Roommates involved in theft, permanently borrowing without asking, not able to hold down jobs – but as long as they were ‘cranking’ the ministry it was over looked
-With one of my disciplers, I was required to walk behind him and too the right
-Brothers caught in sexual sins where shamed, demeaned and rebuked in front of whole groups, they were also forced to stand before groups and confess every detail of their sexual sin
-Once I was deemed unrepentant by my discipler, he got so pissed that he grabbed me and started shaking me and yelling at me to repent
-One year the focus was so severe to convert that we converted 100 people, but the church membership decreased by 2, people were ‘falling away’ as fast as they were converted
-Dating was strictly enforced. Any slipups, falling “into sin was viewed that you were distracted by the other with threats of the relationship being ended by a decision of leadership. My girlfriend and I were told that we would not be allowed to get married unless we meet, studied and converted a replacement single member to replace us.
-My wife got pregnant but it turned out to be a mass and so a DNC was required, the only person that showed up at the hospital was my old girlfriend with a meal for us. Not a word from any of the leaders
-Stats had to be reported by daily calling in especially during big evangelism pushes by a determined time, failure to call in stats sometimes resulted in bad repercussions even whole groups being herded into a closed room and rebuked at times
-Contribution involved group leaders camping out in front of member’s houses until they came home to confront them of their sin and get the money. Leaders also sometimes had to pay out of their own wallets if their people didn’t give
-Yearly seminars where expected to be attended, the only exception was if you where in the hospital dying or having a baby, even then it was viewed as the married couples’ bad timing for the arrival of their newborn during seminar
-Many times the leaders meetings were harsh with yelling, lines drawn in the sand responses etc Very high performance and high expectations were the norm. Any lack of performance was immediately deemed as sin and was met with sometimes volatile consequence
-Paid staff leaders were expected to tow the line, if they tried to stand up to the abuse and bad treatment of the lead evangelist of their group or point out the dysfunction, they were deemed un-loyal and sometimes reassigned to a different city
-One time it came down that all of the fat volunteer ushers where to be dismissed – their sin was deemed obvious. It was deemed that fat ushers in the church service gave a bad impression
-Saw a part singer rushed by a leader and yelled out for not singing loud enough.
-A response by the leaders of sexual sin by a few members; one midweek as soon as I walked into the sanctuary one if the deacons started screaming at me from the front podium “Turn the lights off! We are going to pray! Get those lights out now! Everyone on your knees now! We are going to pray! I what those light out now! EVERYONE GET ON YOUR KNEES NOW!!!”
-One of our handicapped members was manhandled by a frustrated leader, jerked out of her chair and called a piece of sh*t. Throughout my years these ’weak’ people with ‘issues’ would be the ones that would get singled out in D groups and catch hell for their rebellion, of course these people would react to the abuse becoming more emotional which would only bring more yelling and rebukes
What a bunch of crazy stuff! Thanks for commenting, I'm sorry for everything that you went through, and glad that you are out and helping others know what this group is about.Delete
Ok I've read through majority of the comments, posts, etc and I just felt the need to chime in. No matter what church you go to, there will always be politics, corruption, sin and deceit of some nature. The fact that Kip is a public figure just makes him a larger target.ReplyDelete
I've been with Kip since the beginning of the City of Angels Church and I've walked with him, worked with him and even consider him a friend. He is by far the most non-worldly person I know. My perceptions of Kip were based on what the internet told me. (yeah eveyrthing you read is real). While I do agree that there is a great deal of pride, and controlling issues, he has never been above talking about it when pointed out. He's accepted correction, and the majority of the time it makes perfect sense.
This whole Vic Jr debacle is just nonsense. Vic has always been a zealot that has been hungry for leadership and has always been at odds with anyone that questioned or opposed him. He states that he never persecuted the ICOC as a member of the ICC, yet he himself went on many tirades on Facebook blasting our former fellowship.
It's a joke, plain and simple. And yes, if not for one beneficiary supporting Vic, he would be back at the ICC clamoring for a paycheck.
I personally have my own issues with the ICOC and with the ICC, yet I continue to trust in God that he will reveal everything in due time should it need to be. God cannot be mocked and I believe that. People should learn to never throw stones when you live in a glass house. All the name calling, finger pointing, bad attitudes are just manifested from bitterness and people not getting what they want.
I follow Christ, not Kip. He is a man, and yes he is flawed. Find me a perfect leader with the right doctrine, and maybe I'll be behind you in worship.
And incidentally, I do know all the people mentioned in this article as well as the site owner, and if a site highlighted their faults and shortcomings, it would be a very revealing site. I'm just saying... you want to speak the truth, be prepared to have your truth spewed to the masses as well.
To Anonymous January 12th @ 10:58am-Victor Gonazales Jr. is very much the product of the ICOC/ICC environment as many past and current leaders were and are under Kip's leadership. Many leaders have learned to be manipulative, arrogant, divisive, slanderous and competitive for personal gain and glory under Kip's discipling. Victor isn't doing anything differently than what Kip has been doing for the past 30 years!!!ReplyDelete
You stated that "Vic has always been a zealot that has been hungry for leadership and has always been at odds with anyone that questioned or opposed him." Let's not forget that these are the same character issues that Kip has admitted to:
"My sins are clear and grievous. I have been arrogant, almost always thinking I was right. I did not listen. I did not actively seek discipling for me and my family. I was only partially open and deceit came into my life. This led to the sin of anger towards those who DISAGREED with me. Too often, I viewed these individuals as critical. I did not draw people out. I built an atmosphere in which people were afraid to speak up. There were times when I corrected people that I was mean, cruel and I even humiliated them. I was too controlling...Ultimately, my most devastating sin was claiming God’s victory as mine. In pride, I boasted in “my” accomplishments. I allowed people to give me glory; I did not refocus them to God.” -Kip Mckean (From Revolution Through Restoration)
It's obvious to many within and outside of the ICC that Kip has not repented of these sins considering the number of disfellowships and markings the ICC has carried out over the last 2-3 years of older, wiser, spiritually mature disciples who have shared their concerns about Kip's leadership. They are deemed a threat to Kip's position and authority.
You also write, "He [Vic] states that he never persecuted the ICOC as a member of the ICC, yet he himself went on many tirades on Facebook blasting our former fellowship" Again, this isn't any different than what Kip has and continues to do in his propoganda driven newsletters. First with the Portland Bulletin then with the bi-weekly Good News e-mail, and in his semi-auto biography on KipMckean.com. These articles are riddled with descriptions of the ICOC being lukewarm, dead, weak, sentimental, soft on sin, etc.
In regards to Vic's "beneficiary" as you put it. Again, Kip has had thousands of beneficiaries in the form of church members who have sacrificially given so that he, Elena, and his kids could live in posh LA communities like Pacific Palisades and Marina Del Rey, travel the world, stay at first class hotels, send all three kids to Ivy League schools...the list goes on but you get the idea.
Back in the day, people who spoke against the improprieties of Kip's leadership were labeled "divisive." Nearly three decades later he accuses them of being "bitter." More recently, he refers to them as "contemptuous". How sad that many, including yourself, have bought into this.
In no way is this a defense of Victor Gonzales character or deeds because hopefully, like you, I do believe every single person is accountable for his or her own decisions, actions, and to whom they submit to. Unfortunately, to many within the ICC have chosen to submit and therefore be influenced by an authority figure who is no different than Saul.
Ironically, Kip McKean who is hell bent on obedience and submission to his leadership has said, "Biblically, disciples can never rebel against authority, yet as seen with David who "chose" to transfer his allegiance from the ungodly Saul to the uncircumcised Achish. (1 Samuel 27:1-4) one is "free to choose" whom to submit to! (From The Portland Story, August 21, 2005)
I encourage those to chose wisely when it comes to submitting to Kip especially the young who have very little to no knowledge other than the distorted truth of Kip's reign in the ICOC.
People have always been a means to an end for Kip McKean and his "movements." He is notorious for exploiting members for their youth, talent and naivete. It should be no surprise that the ICC leadership is primarily made up of kids under the age of 25 years old who possess little to no work/life experience, lack formal education and have only a rudimentary understanding of the bible. Kip has once again duplicated (in the ICC) the harmful leadership structure he perpetuated during his ICOC reign where the inexperienced, immature and selfishly motivated were egregiously placed in a position of authority.ReplyDelete
Anonymous January 12th you write, "While I do agree that there is a great deal of pride, and controlling issues, he [Kip] has never been above talking about it when pointed out. He's accepted correction..." It's this very pride and need for control that makes Kip more determined than ever to protect his current position and silence those within his congregation who have grave concerns about his leadership. Kip is again attempting to recreate a "culture of silence" that was so prevalent in the ICOC by disfellowshiping, marking and discrediting disciples who have legitimate concerns about the ICC doctrine and its practices. FYI...anyone can give the "impression" that he accepts correction. The acid test of true repentance is that the pattern of behavior changes. In Kip's case, it's all smoke and mirrors.
@ED--->[[[["Personally, I realized that the Bible wasn't the "Word of God" LONG before I ever stopped attending meetings with Kip's group."]]]]ReplyDelete
So what then IS the word of God?
On a side note, I know both Kip and Vic.....this article, although insightful as to how Vic feels, is a load of garbage to anyone who witnessed Vic's sin in person. Since I was there, the reasons he is gone is beyond obvious.
To Anonymous January 22nd-ReplyDelete
Kip was fully aware of the grave concerns about Victor's leadership from the very disciples that were in Victor's ministries/churches from Portland, to the West Region of LA, to San Diego and then Chile. Yet, Kip still allowed Victor to lead?!? Kip chose loyalty to Victor over the spiritual welfare of the people in these different churches. You want to talk about a load of garbage! PLEASE!
In hindsight, yes this was a failure from a leadership perspective on Kip's part however the purpose in the Jan 22nd post was to point out Vic's "leaving" was HARDLY for righteousness. He is much worse than even kip is being painted. trust me on that one.Delete
Anonymous February 6-ReplyDelete
Sounds awfully similar to what Kriete addresses in his 2003 letter, "Honest to God", about the practices of the ICOC under Kip's leadership. It's not surprising that the same things are happening in the ICC with Kip at the healm.
"By and large, we have protected the shepherd and not the sheep. I understand the need for loyalty. Men have done me favors, bailed me out, given me second chances, lifted me up when I was down etc. But I am not talking about one's personal sins or family challenges (although these can be serious), rather, I am talking about protecting and keeping in leaders who are damaging, autocratic, brutal, oppressive, humiliating, selfishly ambitious, defensive and proud. Or about merely moving them to another congregation as a 'second chance', without any true repentance before hand. This is unacceptable."
Yep! Kip did the same with DJ. And we all know how that turned out.ReplyDelete
what happened to DJDelete
My goodness. I really think you ALL are missing the point. It's just going to keep going 'round and 'round with all this he-said she-said chatter. The point is TRUTH regarding matters of doctrine and theology. As soon as you decide to quit being your own authority, wrapped up in this endless pile of worthless opinions, and START seeking the raw TRUTH, you will be set free. If you really believe that Jesus is the son of God, follow the evidence... from an EMPIRICAL perspective!! Dig into some history, theology, doctrine, ect. and you WILL begin to find that all the evidence points in one direction!! It's NOT about being "right," it's about following Christ to the best of your ability! If you believe in holy scripture and its infallibility, can you not see (VERY CLEARLY) that Jesus started a church? He gave His apostles authority? Do you think that the church Jesus started just withered away and its now a free for all?! There's a good starting point, people. Come on. PRAY, THINK, READ, REPEAT!ReplyDelete
Something that must be said here is that Vic Jr's leadership is probably every bit as toxic as Kip's. Not that this necessarily means Vic is a bad guy - but that he was raised under Kip's system and that is really all he knows. The apple doesn't far too fall from the tree. Even if he wants to do things totally differently from Kip, he would not be able to in his present state, and he would need lots of introspection and counseling from professionals whose viewpoints are 180 degrees from Kip.ReplyDelete
As it stands, I definitely see a lot of narcissism and self-justification in Vic's writings. And people who know him personally are aware of his issues too. I could easily see Vic's new churches becoming (or viewing themselves as) the *new* "we are the true sold-out ones" movement of God - although he probably wouldn't have the numeric influence that Kip has had. In addition, Vic seems to be zealously promoting his Italian tile import business, which hints of possible greed issues (will Vic end up becoming a word-of-faith prosperity-gospel preacher?).
Don't get me wrong - I'm *glad* that someone has broken away and exposed the issues of the ICC and Kip. I'm just skeptical that Vic's new church will be any more healthy or non-cultish than Kip's.
This Churches are nothing more than LIES! How people are still believing this LIe is Beyond me....ReplyDelete
****** Acts 5:38 So in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone. Let them go! For if their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God.”Delete
I believe and know the Jesus is the son of God. He is the truth. I follow him without waiver. Under certain definition of cult.....that would make me a cult member. While I have been a member of an icoc church during good times and bad.....I do not, nor ever have followed kip, nor any of the others mentioned in these comments. I am still a member of an icoc church and have lived through many years of bad decisions. Mine, and others. At one time, as a young disciple, I made immature, ungodly decisions listening to 'leaders'. But in the end, it was MY decision to do everything I did. When all is said and done, I will answer to ONE. To those who follow men instead of God....repent. To those who are gossiping.....repent. To those who allow their hurts to move them towards being unloving....repent. If you love Christ, then your purpose is to help get people to heaven in answer to His love. That includes every person on this board as well as everyone mentioned on it too. If your convictions ever lead you to be unloving.....repent, for you are obnoxious to the Word. Focus on the first two virtues of love: patience and kindness.....if you can get these two down, perhaps the Lord will allow you, us, to know more. To all those who love Christ, remember, while He was carrying our cross in love, He was spit upon by those He was carrying it for. For all the messed up decisions Kip or any other leader made, they will be held accountable. If you followed him in the past....you shouldnt have. If you put your trust in Kip....youre cursed. If you put your trust in Vic.....youre cursed. If you put your trust in any man.....youre cursed. If you put your trust in yourself.....youre cursed. Love always trusts..........God. Not man. Through all this time.....Christ has not changed.ReplyDelete
Bravo! well stated...Christ is the Alpha and the Omega!Delete
Too bad we are all "anonymous" ; you seem like a solid disciple I would want to get to know. See you in heaven I suppose if we remain faithful. =)Delete
I pity you for being so coward! You're hidind behind your blog yet your heart is yelling bitterness and mind jealousy. May God deal with you Victor and may he do the same to your pseudo allies for tolerating you!ReplyDelete
Oh by the way, try to improve this site by putting your photos for some credential and background check! It's kinda boring! Its a shame that you've been a blind follower and then create something like this to back stub individual. Moaner!!!ReplyDelete
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.ReplyDelete
Kip still owns his ICOC trademark and CC so he profits from both. You've all been conned. Check out all trademarks, they're publicReplyDelete
****** Acts 5:38 So in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone. Let them go! For if their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God.”ReplyDelete
I agree. If this "Sold_Out" movement is against God, it will fail. If it is of God, it will not be stopped. Time will tell.ReplyDelete
That is quite surprising... I have never heard of that before reading your post!ReplyDelete
It makes me quite puzzled and angry too!
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http://obataborsi59.com/cara-menggugurkan-kandungan-dengan-cepat-dan-aman/ cara menggugurkan kandungan
I left the Boston Movement in 1990. Stumbled upon this blog and am very sad and even sickened to hear that Kip is reverting back to his old ways and his own same old narcissistic controlling self and is going to hurt a whole new generation of people who are truly seeking God. Kip didn't change. The "movement " hasn't changed. It was all lip service. He's like a criminal who was put in jail and then released on parole and reverts back to his same old criminal ways once he's free. Jesus said a tree is known by its fruit, by their fruit you will know them. Look at the fruit the Boston movement, the ICOC, the ICC, The sold out discipling movement, whatever you want to call it, has produced it's nothing but rotten in the core stinking bad fruit with a pretty skin on the outside!ReplyDelete
So in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone. Let them go! For if their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God."
Since people want to talk smack and defend their precious leader this is a message to you. Your paying your leaders to live rich while you struggle with your financial situation.you do the same work except preach on Sundays yet you dont get paid. Did Jesus or Paul get paid? NO! Je kept his job as a tentmaker which benefit him as a portable job.the problem with ICC is they talk to much where the bible is silent. They make man made rules.just like mark 7 with the followers who didn't wash their hands. ICC has the rule of praying in the early morning like at 5am. But when i prayed at 8 am i was discipled to change. I was "in sin". Sometimes i had finals or a lot of HW but that didn't matter. I didn't read the bible for a hour and again i fell in sin because i wasn't PUTTING God's kingdom first. Another rule they have is not to miss any meetings of the body. If i came late i would be discipled for it but the leaders could move the start of church so they wouldn't be late. You can't miss Sundays because they need your 10 percent to exist. You could watch the message on facebook and it wouldn't matter to them you have to come physically to church. Another rule that is a contraction is do not talk to certain people because your yolk will be contaminated. But when you share your faith it is okay to reach anyone on campus.(they could praise satan and it would be okay ) all these rules are not in the bible. Does it say "read your bible everyday for one hour or else that is a sin"No!why are you a ICC member okay with paying for someone's mortgage taxes? Kip never repented he said sorry but he didn't have a change of heart. Did ge return the money ?No! Did he ever get "restored " on YouTube? No! Why does Kip Mckean enjoy a wealthy lifestyle while you have to eat from the dollar menu? Your following a corporation hidden as a church. Ask kip McKean or any of your leaders to be serve the lord for free. Tell them to keep their jobs and still run the church. They would never do it. Untill then i will remain a fall away . I refuse to follow a mega church institution. ICC has corporation positions that are renamed paid staff . No! You have a payroll, you have a accountant, they haveva CEO which is Tim. The only law that ICC practices is tithing. All the laws were pinned to the cross when jesus died. They won't kill animals for their sin and justify their believes that the old laws were done with. But the ONLY LAW they follow is the tithing law. That is why the are a old and new testament church because their practices have to connected to their believes. It is silly how they pick and choose only certain laws or ceremonies to continue tradition but they won't kill a animal for their forgivnessof their sins. It is only used what is convenient to ICC leaders. I spoke all these issues to a member and they told me that no church is perfect. She's right. No church is perfect because they all are money hungry. While i was pregant i gave 50% of what my allowance was. It wasn't earned income. I had to eat dollor menu food to pay for the leaders to sit on their gold throns. Many of the church members would seek food banks because they went broke over the church. Is kip going to food banks? Are his children living in poverty? No. But my daughter has to suffer?ReplyDelete
[ rich leaders ]
You've clearly never been on the finance team. They live check to check just like most of us. Some drive beat up cars, have roommates, need to get cash advances and even use money given as gifts to pay bills or to advance the kingdom. The only ones that truly live above lower middle class are the ones who already had money to begin with.
[ Did Jesus or Paul get paid ]
Paul himself said he had the RIGHT to be paid. Since John ch1 shows that Paul's words are still the Word of God by the spirit, your position about Jesus himself is nullified.
[ ICC and 5am prayers ]
Nonsense; that was your ministry, for a selected instance for a temporary period of time. It's a morning prayer for the souls of your campus and your own relationship with God. If you were discipled for 8 am, it's due to defiance, not because of a man-made rule.
[ Reading for an hour ]
There is no minister in the kingdom who claims 1 hour is the standard. That was a standard given to you as advice. You seemingly took it upon yourself to go against the advice from the individual God himself put in your life to help you grow. Not only did you still act on your own, but you slander her indirectly behind their back. Do you really think this is Biblical?
[ Don't miss meetings of the body ]
Hebrews 10:25 & Phil 4:1-6 pretty much ruin your feelings on this. Don't give up meeting together & be completely unified. It's not an ICC thing, it's a BIBLE THING.
[ Need the 10% ]
The church doesn't need your 10%, nor does God. They need your obedience. It seems like just based on this first third of a paragraph, you hate the idea of sacrificial giving for the overseas msisionaries.You wouldn't feel that way if your blood mother and father were the very people you were supporting.
[ Do not be equally yoked ]
So what do you expect? Just throw 2 Corinthians 6 out the window? It's either light or darkness. You can't have the gray area of sentimenality.
[ Read your Bible Everyday or you sin ]
Are you telling me that if you met the love of your life, you would really struggle to have an equal , back and forth relationship LESS than 1 hour in a day? Yeah right. If God is supposed to be your #1 and your entire life FOCUSES on Him, 1 hour is merely an opinion based, starting point. The fact that you practically ARGUE against this shows your LACK of a Berean heart. Sad.
[ Kip never repented ]
You don't know Kip. You clearly weren't there when the split happened you certainly weren't on the finance team. Kip had no money sins, nor is he "rich" from church as you believe. This is ignorance.
[ Tithing ]
This isn't a law, it's pre-law. Re-read Genesis, Jesus is the high priest of Melchizedek and we do it in submission, reverence and honor of Him. Jesus destroyed all the civil and ceremonial laws on the cross. The only reason it FEELS like any Christian obeys the moral laws is because it's unloving to NOT obey them. This is encompassed within the greatest command.
[ Your daughter ]
Look, I'm sorry you and your daughter are in a tough spot financially, but thinking Kip's pre-ministry wealth has anything to do with this is deflecting from a bigger issue.
Your lack of accurate ideologies and slander is a salvation issue. Your seperation from the body of Christ is a salvation issue. Your lack of forgiveness is a salvation issue. Your lack of desire to be unified on topics such as sacrifice and purity of yoke is a salvation issue. You CLEARLY have deeper issues than a dollar menu diet.
I beg you, repent, ask God to change your heart because the ONLY THING worse according to the Bible than a person who rejects becoming a disciple, is a person who becomes a disciple THEN FALLS AWAY ( like you have done ) to trample the cross publicly like this.
To insult disciples is to insult the body of Christ and Chris himself. You couldn't even become restored somewhere else with this heart.
Please repent, please. :(
I remember meeting you when you were younger when my wife and I were a part of ICC. I'm glad you got out, man. And the fact that your own father stood against you, and your mother was told not to care for her grandchildren. Just shows what a manipulative group that is. Blessings to you and your wife and best of luck.ReplyDelete
If you knew the depth of his sin, you wouldn't think this way.Delete
I know how this group can be. I was a part of the Eugene ICC from 2004-07. I stood by being a good little sheep to the leaders and watched as my wife was torn apart every women's midweek and came home in tears. I stood as everyone dressed me down and told me to quit my job and beat my street because i worked during times of meetings of the body. That no matter what i did the leaders of this movement were keeping score. I drank the Kool Aid for four years and enough was enough. September 10th 2008. The day I started following God and stopped following a bunch of narcissistic pricks.ReplyDelete
With that language, it sounds less like you found God and you found your itching ear's version of "god."Delete
It's so sad to read this blog post and know both sides of the story. If I had no idea what the both sides of the story were, I would've thought that Kip and the ICC were eViL. Victor Jr. It's been years since you wrote this and it breaks my heart that hundreds of people have read your petty story. I was in your ministry, your ungodly ministry and I myself had tried multiple times approaching you and Aurora about the alarming things you would teach and about the times how no one in church would show up when you and Aurora were out on vacation pretty often. I had to bring these concerns to Kip because you two would just say "you're just being emotional", when clearly, no one in the church you were leading were faithful disciples. When you found out I reached out to Kip, you told the church, they all turned on me and called me all sorts of names. You then, along with you wife, told me in person, that I was dead to you along with many other words. You, my dEaR brother, have acted just like, if not, WORSE than Kip ever has. I am stating all this to you 7 years later. I am no longer apart of the ICC. But I do remember what I saw, what I heard from you first hand, in a foreign country. You talked about "getting more numbers than the LA church" and so so so much more. your claims about Cory and Kip are extremely petty. Quite frankly, you deserved to be maybe at least punched in the face for the amount of pride and ignorance you had and for all the people you've lead astray for so many years. I wish this childish post would be brought down. It's extremely deceiving and leads many astray. DO BETTER. - SARAReplyDelete
Same ^ I saw the same thing first hand. Crazy how one side of the story seems reasonable until you hear the other.Delete