Dec 10, 2012

FB Responses To Kip's McKean's Threats To My Family Post

Below are some of the responses and controversy spurred by this post about Kip McKean threatening my family (and other church abuses) when I posted it recently on my Facebook page. (All names have been replaced with "---" to conceal the identity of the commenters.) ...

"For anyone who remembers a post a while back about my (former) church threatening my family, here are a few more details about what happened"

--- fascinating story ---... i am sorry you have had to endure any of this... corruption and deceit in the
name of Christ is disheartening, frustrating, exhausting on every level... i am praying for you and your family
November 29 at 11:27am · Unlike · 1

------ sorry you had to go through this.
November 29 at 11:27am · Unlike · 1

----- May God bring a time of peace and refreshment into yours and your family's hearts.
Jesus showed true leadership. That wasn't Jesus.
November 29 at 11:30am via mobile · Unlike · 1

---- Siempre supe k ese puerco era una rata!!!
November 29 at 11:31am via mobile · Like

---- Wow, that's terrible. It really saddens me when people do things like that and then call
themselves Christians. It gives a bad name to those of us who are actually trying to live like Christ. I hope that your family is able to heal from all of the abuse you suffered at the hands of those men.
November 29 at 11:40am · Unlike · 1

--- So sorry, ---, for you, your family and for those who are still there and unable or unwilling to
get out. I appreciate you sharing your experience, I am praying for your healing... Peace, friend.
November 29 at 11:41am · Unlike · 1

--- Speechless.....simply incredible. It is amazing that in this day and age, people like that still get
away with acts like that. It is good to hear that your own faith wasn't shaken by this. Faith is a gift from God - Religion is man's attempt to organize faith.....
November 29 at 12:48pm · Unlike · 2

--- This reminds me of the widow giving all she had with the Pharisees overseeing. *She* was
commended and God's recognition is on such things.

On the other hand, God is also not fooled nor mocked.

Sorry for your experience. Keep the faith.
November 29 at 12:51pm via mobile · Unlike · 1

--- That was hard to read; sorry for all the pain you've been through
November 29 at 12:53pm · Unlike · 1

--- You have a beautiful family ---, and we are in an energy space that the lies and lower
energy cannot survive. "Everything that is hidden will come to the light..." Very proud you found your voice. Continue in that energy, and remember that those that were supposed to protect Jesus 'in the church' were those that persecuted him. I am grateful that you have moved through that lesson of true faith and how you and your family should be treated in the eyes if God and man. True faith and love operate outside of fear, and I am grateful you overcame your fear in true faith and love!
November 29 at 1:13pm via mobile · Unlike · 1

--- Wow that was hard to read sorry that u went through that bro
November 29 at 1:41pm via mobile · Unlike · 1

--- ---, Very sorry that you had to go through this.
November 29 at 1:41pm · Unlike · 2

--- I'm glad you and your family are free from this abuse and imprisonment
November 29 at 2:02pm via mobile · Unlike · 1

--- · 263 mutual friends
Wow ---. I just read everything and I feel so bad for you and what happened. There is no excuse for things like this to happen. I've always had a love and respect for you. I do hope to see God work some miracles and for him to teach everyone involved the lessons they need to learn.

I would however be careful that bitterness (while understandable here, but still unfortunately unacceptable from a biblical perspective)from this doesn't cause you to make inaccurate blanket assertions about how the church pays all of it's leaders. I'm one of those leaders and I oversee several of our churches. I don't begrudgingly hold back what I am paid. We just gave the annual financial presentation, where we brought the bank statements of the church, all reports from the accounting system and the adminstrators and myself sat in the back logeed into the churche's bank accoutns, my personal bank accounts, and anything else people felt that they needed to see to know where every penny they give is spent. I am happy to disclose anything about the churches or my own finance. But I do have to spend much more time than I should calming people's fears and anxieties because of posts like this that start with truthful events that are wrong and go on into inaccurate assertions about everyone around the world who's in fellowship with those people.

Just for the sake clarification and to reitterate what what publicly disclosed last week in the DC church. My wife and I together make a salary of $84K. That's not just the beginning of what we make as you asserted, but the end. We get no expenses or parsonage or any of the other things you described. We are a family of 5 because we have a 17yr old teen living with us and we live in a 2 bdrm apt outside the borders of DC, which costs us $2,900. I share not to boast, but because you put into question how I and others live and you describe what the members of the church are asked to give and then insinuate the leaders are only able to do it because they make 4 and 5 times what they should. I do all of those things as a member: I give to the poor...I give to the special....then we raise money and give more - whatever we can whenever there is need to send people to preach the word. I raise money, beg for money in emails, and give everything I can because it's about saving as many souls as possible, not about me having ANYTHING left.

Now here's the breakdown of how my wife use our salary on a monthly basis:

Gross Pay $7,000.00
Taxes $1,180.00 - This is where my special comes from
Net Pay $5,820.00
Rent $2,900.00
Tithe $1,257.00 18%
Food,Bills $1,100.00
Car $ 310.00
Car Insurance $ 110.00
Life insurance $ 65.00
Leftover $ 78.00

And yes, as ministers we have huge expenses. I don't say this because I'm bitter or don't like doing it. But when things like this come out and belittle how much cost is involved, it's just not right. In the ministry, there's always people in your home, always lights and electricity on, always feeding people, tons of garbage and cleaning up after people who leave a mess behind them and always high phone costs of people who begin calling at 6am and call way into 1-2AM. I'm very happy do do all of that and I happily suck u the cost for all of it out of my own pocket. But please don't cheapen and belittle all of that work that people in the ministry do to honor God, strengthen the weak, and save souls by laying down their lives, their hearts, and yes the money they earn in serving the Lord.

All discipes have these increased costs. BUt, not like when you're in the ministry. You do the math and see myself, along with countless other ministers are living the way you're portraying to the entire world here. If you want to know the rest of my finances, I have $4,300 in an retirement account from my old secular jobs 401K, and I have a savings account with $7 in it. because of posts like yours I've been searched and probed into every creavice of my life and that's ok because as someone who accepts the calling of God, we must accept the good and the bad.

While I don't agree with any of what happened to you, the blanket assertions give people wrong perceptions those words affect affect other ministers like me. I'm held accoutable by God and the members of my church for how I live and the words I speak. But, you are accountable to God as well --- when your assertions are inacurate. Stay righteous so God will fight in your favor and right the wrongs done to you. While you are defintely right about the majority of the wrongs done to you in your blog, the words coming from your anger destroy the faith people have in real ministers, really ministering, and the real costs of doing that. Those words stop the work of God and must be called out for what they are just as you must call out the wrongs that were done to you. So, I take nothing away from the wrongs that were done to you. I simply leave you with one wrong doesn't justify another and all sin is sin.

You posed the question in your blog "How much money does it take?" The answer to that is very simple. More than any of us have to give. That's why I give every cent toward that cause and I won't apologize, cower down, or hide from anyone how I pursue the Lord's dream of seeing every creature on this planet hearing the gospel, because you cannot put a price on what should or shouldn't be spent to save a soul.We don't question when a search and rescue team with the coast guard spends half a million dollars so one person doesn't die without any regard for whether or not that person will go to heaven or hell. But if a minister has a $50 lunch with a married couple that changes their life, saves their broken marriage, provides a healthy environment for the suffering kids, and they end up in heaven everyone looks at that minister like a thief because of posts like this. That's a tragedy.

With the Love of Christ,
November 29 at 2:14pm · Like · 4

--- I read your entire blog ---, yours to ---!!
In no way did it cause me to question my faith, or my church or my ministers!!
People will question other people due to their own environment, issues, past and beliefs! Not because of your post! I'm so sorry you've experienced bad ministry, however i know there is good out there, you will find that good ministry and be a valued member of the ministry
November 29 at 2:25pm via mobile · Unlike · 1

--- · 263 mutual friends
Thank you for responding --- and I'm certainly not trying to detract from the horrible things that happened to --- and his family. I believe things like this should be exposed and dealt with.

Absolutely call out sin, deceit, lies, whatever needs to be addressed. But, don't lump other people in other parts of the world into it that are not a part of it either. That's all I'm getting at.

This the blog lumped in all leaders from my family of churchesd and I happen to be one of those who is lumped in and I happen to have people show me prinouts of things exactly like this quite often.

I'm glad that his blog did make you question your faith and your ministers. But, it's a little difficult to understand it's impact until you sit on the other side of the fence having people bring printouts of blogs like this and spend countless hours being guilty until proven innocent. When a blog labels ALL of the leaders from a given group and it's not true for not only ALL but maybe only one or two, let it be a blog about those one or two.
November 29 at 2:44pm · Like

--- Wow. I'm glad u shared. God will not be mocked. I'm praying for you and --- to be blessed by
exposing this.
November 29 at 2:51pm · Unlike · 1

--- ---- --- you learned a valuable lesson that I am sure will never be forgotten. Family and
faith are the most important things we have and a bad seed can ruin it all. I have a similar story, but it involved a mentor of mine, who was a high school teacher. Everyone thought he was fun and a fantastic member of the community. I did, until I started volunteering my time to his organization. He allowed children that he was responsible for to do drugs, have sex, and all the while he was stealing and having an inappropriate relationship with a male underage student. I reported all of it to the principal of the school, with this person in the chair beside me. I had to tell the truth, he was affecting children's lives. My meeting went the same as yours, I was told I was a liar, threatened, and walked away from something that I had once loved and believed in. I was not believed by many and nothing was ever done to try and correct the issue. A year later someone more important than me in the community brought it to light. They realized he had stole tens of thousands of dollars and the school was responsible for the debt. When they confronted him, a few days later he committed suicide. I was heart broken when I heard. I always wondered what would have happened if they would have done something when I said something. ---, I lost friends over it and had people stop speaking to me and call me names, but in your heart you know what is true and what is not. When push comes to shove the person you answer to is yourself and your creator. At the time when this all finally came out, they blamed the underage boy and people tried to make excuses, refusing to see the truth in black and white before them. Sad really, if you think about it. I am proud of you for sticking up for the truth, that speaks more about you than you realize. Life lessons that are the most valuable, are usually the hardest to learn. So as people try to call you out negatively and try to make their truth try to be yours, remember to stand your ground and believe in who you are and what you represent. You cannot make people see what you see or change their minds. You can only walk closer to you creator with the knowledge of truth.
November 30 at 3:35pm · Edited · Unlike · 3

--- ---, I read what --- wrote twice and I can't see where you got the idea that ---
1. made "inaccurate blanket assertions about how the church pays all of it's leaders"
2. started "with truthful events that are wrong and go on into inaccurate assertions about everyone around the world who's in fellowship with those people."
3. labelled "ALL of the leaders from a given group"
The abuse --- suffered under Kip McKean and those around him is not unique and in any event wasn't about you at all.
I am in a similar situation as you are Ron, where I am regularly (and often exhaustively) questioned about how I handle other people's financial matters. I welcome this scrutiny because if I have made a mistake, it allows me to correct it and if I haven't (thankfully the more frequent of the two), it allows me to show them how carefully I do my job.
I have sympathy for ---'s complaint - none for yours.
November 29 at 4:21pm · Unlike · 4

--- I am so sad that you and your wife endured such horrendous treatment.
November 29 at 5:05pm via mobile · Unlike · 2

--- In addition, the City of Angels ICC is Kip McKean's Church. It is not the International Churches
of Christ (ICOC)
November 29 at 5:17pm · Unlike · 1

--- · 263 mutual friends
---, my brother as I began I feel horrible about that happened to you. I have always respected you and I do admire and respect you speaking out about what happened to you and I will be an advocate to see justice done. I love you. So, don't lump me and the other guys into your battle by using incorrect information about us. Ask for my help to make it right and I am here for you.

Here's the bottom line --, I don't need or want your guys sympathy. I love what I do. Here's ---s statements from his blog, "The church does not reveal exactly how much it pays its leaders (note: that is a huge red flag in itself) but the information that they begrudgingly provide as required by law is easy enough to decipher to get a pretty good idea. They divide ministry compensation up into categories so that the salary column looks as small as possible. Housing (called parsonage), expenses, health care, and misc, and maybe other columns that I am forgetting at the moment, are all separated out. But if you add them all together, and then divide that sum by the number of paid ministers, you start getting close. You should also keep in mind that higher-ranking ministers earn a but more than lower-ranking ministers. "

The church doesn't actually reveal what is made... Begrudgingly provided... insinuating we only disclose because we're required by law, etc As what he calls a "higher ranking" minister, these statements from his blog are about me and every other minister our church and they are simply not true and that's just a fact. My posting of my own personal information is not necessary, but happily done and this situation did provide me the opportunity to show how carefully I do my job.

And I'm not calling --- a liar. He's simply stating things about a larger group "the church" which he's not informed enough to make and I happily put the facts in front of you about all of it. So that should clear it up so everyone can move with complete facts in mind.

How about this. Instead of focusing me on clarifying the facts that are wrong, how about you let the focus and attention be on what was truly wrong here and let's all work toward making those things right.

--- is an admirable, sacrificial, man who has done countless incredible things for the Lord who was wronged and those who did it need to be held accountable. ---'s life is worthy of respect and honor. But, in focusing on that and finding him the justice that he seeks in his blog and protecting others from suffering the same things, I also cannot sit and allow him to make wrong statements about what I and the other ministers make and do within our ministries and wrong us to make his point.
November 29 at 5:22pm · Like · 1

--- Good read
November 29 at 6:06pm via mobile · Unlike · 1

--- ---- My wife read this and it brought up memories of excesses Henry Kriete
Described in his letter. It also brings up the definition of insanity and Kip's 'movement' is repeating that same tactics but thinking he will get a different result but all it leads to is shipwrecked faith and broken relationships/families. It's just tragic
November 29 at 6:21pm via mobile · Unlike · 1

--- I must say that I have to agree with --- on this one. Kip McKean's churches have a history of
problems similar to what is described. There is not anything in ---'s descriptions that is outside of stories heard over the last two decades during Kip's leadership of the International Churches of Christ or the Sold Out Discipling Movement. Are we to believe that there has been a wholesale change in Kip's leadership? Are we to believe that the hierarchical nature of the church structure would not lead to the abuses that came to a head with the International Churches of Christ? If you disagree and think his leadership is beneficial either you are correct or you are deceived. The question is which is more likely? Normally we give people the benefit of the doubt, but given Kip's history we must put the burden of proof on him. Has he reconciled with the leaders of the mainline Church of Christ or the International Churches of Christ? These are the people that know him the best and have the best independent analysis of his leadership. Do you believe that the road is so narrow that their input is meaningless?
November 29 at 6:22pm · Unlike · 2

--- --- ---, I am glad that you broke away from that group and have become a more independent
thinker. Your family is here for you, no you can never get away from us! We know where to find you. Bwahahaha. I always had a feeling there was something amiss with the situation but wanted to give the benefit of the doubt, since you are "the smart one".  I find it amusing how Ron "interprets" your words. Yes I am ---'s REAL brother, and I approve this message.
November 29 at 7:31pm · Unlike · 2

--- Little did I know what my praying for you and --- was going against. I'm so glad God delivered
November 29 at 8:20pm · Unlike · 1

---- ---, I have experienced sooooo many similar wounds from the SAME family and same
people. I’m sure you know I of all people can relate. What helps me is what --- and --- have already said in just holding onto knowing God will not be mocked and holding on to my desire to make it to heaven, so I refuse with all I have in me to not let them take me out with them (by giving into bitterness). You know in your heart that God see’s everything. He said he was going to let the weeds grow alongside us. He said he was going to let Satan test our hearts. It’s definitely not easy I KNOW!!! I love you and --- a lot my Brother and I feel for you because I know your pain. I remember coming to visit --- in the hospital when she had ---. And --- was always so sweet and kind to me when I was in the Latin ministry. Please hear me when I say I understand. I know it can feel like you’re living in a twilight zone when everyone around you knows about all the gross and unbelievable sin being covered up but is afraid to speak up. And the few people, who do try to help, can’t do much because nothing is being done from the top. I have finally just said to myself, Amen God is in control and he will take care of it in his own time. Yet I know it’s so hard to surrender to waiting for God and his will to prevail. I have definitely fallen short in trying to figure out the journey of getting my own heart surrendered. We both know and have witnessed sooooooo many people that have fallen away on account of these people and you don’t want your family to just be another on that list. There have been times where I’ve visited other churches here or there hoping to escape the drama and somehow be able to worship and love God in peace. But the problem is that we have seen and experienced too much of the dream to evangelize the world to settle for some little rinka dink community church that only worries about their city (and doesn’t have the right doctrine anyway). It’s a really hard battle, I know! I hope and I’ll be praying that you decide to come back. But whatever happens what --- said was right, not everyone in the church is corrupt and we can’t let them keep chasing people away. I hope you decide to stay in what you know is God’s kingdom for God alone and nobody else. It will be SUPER AKWARD, SUPER UNCOMFORTABLE and SUPER HARD at times just like it is for me. I’m not saying (by any means) that I have this all figured out. I still fall short and have to pray every day for my heart to not be bitter or wanting my own will or timing over God’s. Please feel free to contact me anytime. I would love to have you and --- and your kids over for dinner anytime!!!!!!
November 29 at 9:22pm · Edited · Unlike · 4

--- --- -As a historian, it's sad to see people repeating the same mistakes and
expecting a different result, it's easy to see how your pathetic religious bullying is vintage old school icoc. It's a pathetic joke
November 29 at 10:01pm via mobile · Like

------ My experience teaches me that there is more dependency on the structure and
systems rather than the interdependency scripture speaks of. As humans, we are prone to bend towards structure for security, and the church is no exception - it's full of humans! lol
November 29 at 10:49pm · Unlike · 2

--- I've read ---'s posts on the ministerio global site. I must say, as one being in the meeting
wrote about - that I recall the offending party being rebuked and held accountable during that meeting for the horrible sins committed against ---.I do not recall leaving that meeting considering in any way that --- was a "liar" or somehow in any way at fault in the matter. I believe he was lied to, manipulated, and I believe that was recognized and admonished. I also recall that --- was paid back in full regarding expenses incurred in this particular incident in an attempt to make right the situation. It is a sad victory of Satan that this has not healed, even after the monies were returned to --- and the sin admonished.
November 29 at 11:05pm · Like

--- ---, this makes me really sad. I am sorry that you were hurt but also now others are being hurt
by your blog. Even though You and --- have been in our group for a short while, --- and I have never heard the whole story and you have told not the church but the whole world. matt 18 nobody wins here except Satan. --- and I have gone thru a situation with my Family that seems similar to yours. I am sure if you talked to --- about it (not on facebook) he would share how God has worked. Nothing has changed in my family but God has changed bitter to better and blessed us in so many ways. The answer is not people but God.
November 29 at 11:52pm via mobile · Like

--- ---- The Creator is available anywhere, not just your church. I am astounded, but expected
to see post on here trying to trivialize ---'s experience. I have known --- for 10 years and he is not one to fabricate. I can see no one is even questioning that in this post. In fact --- states he was at the meeting about the funds and everything --- states in his post was correct except that the funds were returned. It doesn't matter that the funds were returned, that still does not make the actions correct. What I do not see, is any member of the church here apologizing and condemning (and they should be) the fact that a church would try to break apart a marriage. --- is a wonderful husband and father. --- did state he was upset about the money issue, but if you read his post what pushed him was away was a church that would try and use its influence to ruin a family. I do not see one post by the people trying to defend their church, addressing that issue. ---'s main issue. No blog would have ever been created if that had not happened. I too, would not be a member of any organization that treated my family like ICOC has. This is what I warned --- about in my previous post. I knew people would do this. Stand strong --- and understand your true family are the ones that support you in this. The truth is the truth. It does not matter and should not matter where it is stated. Only those that would try and cover up and make others not see the truth would care where it was stated or even bring that up in their message. --- stand tall for your family and understand as people walk away because of what you said, only the people that should be in your life will remain. As one door closes, another always opens and brings newer and better things into ones life.
November 30 at 3:33pm · Edited · Unlike · 1

--- --- -------, and others: Thank you for your support.

---, you are a good man, and although the post you mention is different than the one I shared here, I understand your point. It sounds like your church does things differently than the City of Angels church, the church which is the focus of my blog and my writings.

---, I purposely did not use your full name in the post because I wanted to save you the embarrassment, and since I believed that you really did want to help. But since you have now unfairly called my truthfulness and accuracy into question, I am compelled to respond.

Whether or not the money was reimbursed at the end doesn't alter the events that led up to it and it would have added insult to injury if the church had refused to reimburse any of it. The church did eventually reimburse me for the van, which was a little over a third of all the money in question. It did not reimburse me for the heartache caused by the bilking.

You of all people should know that the meeting in question was anyting but successful.
Because of your silence and inaction at the important times, VGSr was allowed to walk out of the room without ever admitting or taking responsibility for his lies.

Even though you had just days earlier heard his full, detailed, play-by-play account and confession of the incredible depths of his ongoing deceitfulness, you then let him get away with claiming that "It was so long ago I can't even remember," right when was the appropriate time and place for him to confess the details. So the end result of your "help" was VGSr completely getting off the hook for his biggest misdeeds, and only being chewed out for a couple of minutes for being insensitive.

Also, while the word "liar" was not used against me in the meeting, the effect was the same, of the powers-at-be incorrectly believing VGSr's story instead of my own, again, because of your epic failure to open your mouth at the appropriate time. You were the one person in the time and place to help bring about a better conclusion to that chapter, but you did not. And you now try to insinuate that everything turned out well and I am somehow wrong to be bringing it up at this time. Very disappointing my friend.

And ---, as it has been pointed out, the main thrust of my blog entries was a topic you did not touch on: the threats to try to destroy my family. What more unhealthy, controlling environment could you imagine than one where they try to control the lives of members and even nonmembers using threats of this nature, and coming from the very top of the organization.
November 30 at 10:42am · Like · 3

--- ---, I'm very happy to hear you've left that place. They're just fictitious leaders- young kids who
30-40 years ago decided to play church, said they had copyrights to Christianity, and look down on anyone who was seminary trained. The only smart thing we can do with those people is wipe the dust off our feet from them; they are just plain unhealthy people.
November 30 at 10:55am · Like · 1

------ This is a quote from a poster above - "But the problem is that we have seen and
experienced too much of the dream to evangelize the world to settle for some little rinka dink community church that only worries about their city (and doesn’t have the right doctrine anyway). " - this mentality is the true problem with these groups.
November 30 at 11:53am · Like

--- · 263 mutual friends
---, Thank you for your comments to me. I do condemn the threats to your family, the lies, the deceit, and the outcome of what happened to you. It was as many stated difficult to stomach and utterly, horribly wrong. Had I been present or been asked to be there you know I would have. I would have stood then by your side and I stand here now against what happened to you.

But, you have to ask yourself the question. If what I just wrote is my obvious stance in what I responded with and I am a god man( in your own words), how did your family members and others in this thread take the very negative view they so obviously took towards me in this thread because I wanted to correct ONE ASPECT of what you said about how "the church" operates. They obviously thought you were talking about just the City of Angels church and thought I was "interpreting" your words other than that. But you and I both know you were speaking about all of our churches worldwide and that's why you used the around 3,000 members around the world. Everyone has to take all of the articles you wrote onto the blog, not just the one you pointed to in this thread because people will take this one and read the rest. You and I both understood what was implied when you talk about "the church" and how "the ministers" are paid and that includes all of the ministers in our family of churches around the world, including me and many, many others. So, as you said, "I understand your point". THEY didn't understand it because of the very thing I started out with.

The incorrect things in the blog turn people away from ministers like myself and produce comments like, "I'm glad you're away from those people." I'm glad your away from being lied to and cheated out of money as well. But, I also know that when they all say that, those responses here from your family prove the one thing I tried to get across - that negativity spread to people like me, of which all of the negative comments towards me here are proof. The presentation of the ministerio latino blog that you took over and are now using for your personal blog makes implications for far more than the City of Angels church and condemns countless other innocent people and portrays those innocent and moral individuals in such a way that those you influence would shun them - me being one of "those people".

I'm going to shut up now and all those in this blog you've influenced wrongly with inaccurate facts will think or probably say, "Good he finally stopped spouting all that garbage. I'm glad --- is done with people LIKE HIM", while the truth is that I would and will fight to the death with you to see justice done with you.

I do truly hope we can bring justice together and make this a matter that is dealt with appropriately so everyone is encouraged by real ministers who really practice what they preach and take full responsibility for wrongs that are done in their congregations.

So, now it's up to you to realign what you presented so your friends and family here don't attack people who do support you and just want to see justice brought without condemning others who don't need to be condemned.

Know that I'm here to engage in helping see this through to the end, just let me know what you need. I'm not your physical family as was clearly pointed out to me. But, I do love you.
November 30 at 8:14pm · Edited · Like · 1

--- --- ---, you seem like a good man and I'm sorry if I offended you. There are those of us who think
your kind of "my way or the highway" church mentalities are unhealthy, and even the cause of many of the problems in the world, especially when we see our blood brothers or those close to us succumb to what some see as brainwashing. I personally have no problem with you or your church, other than the attitude quoted above, where it is obvious that those who attend "small town churches" are wasting their time and lives. It's an arrogant approach to what is supposed to be an accepting faith, IMO. Thank you for your positive influences on those who you have helped improve their live's paths, but we will have to agree to disagree about the fundamentals of family and faith. I'm OK with that.
November 30 at 12:29pm · Unlike · 3

--- · 263 mutual friends
Thank you ---. I completely agree with your comments about about the "my way or the highway". That is brainwashing and destructive as you say. That's certainly not my way. "It's the Bibles way, not my way or your way." So we can agree on that. You take care and if I offended in any way please forgive me. I wish you all the best.
November 30 at 12:48pm · Like

--- --- ---, I did not hijack anyone's blog; the blog is mine and always has been. I started it and all of the
content there has always been written exclusively by me.
November 30 at 12:52pm · Like

---· 263 mutual friends
I'm sorry if I misunderstood that. That link was given as the link for the Latin Ministry, which has given out to the church leaders. I retract that.
November 30 at 1:04pm · Like

--- --- ---, I have updated the post with which you had taken issue with a footnote that adds the
information that you have given me.
El Ministerio Latino: How Much Money Does It Take?
Noticias y Clases de la Iglesia Cristiana Internacional "City of Angels" (Cuidad...See More

November 30 at 10:56pm · Like · Remove Preview

---· 263 mutual friends
November 30 at 1:31pm · Like

---- Come on ---, I understand you were wronged but you should also write about the good times,
which were many, 15 years ago you made Jesus lord and began helping people know god as we are all trying to do, people are leaving drugs behind (like me), people are rebuilding their marriages, and people are finding their soulmates (like u did). Why don't you now tell that story? When u went to Arizona to preach he word. Go in great detail too, who were there for your future wife to love, to teach, to about the good things too, cause there are a lot, and they're still happening. God is in control of everything including this movements, just this year we've been able to help people from getting divorced, out of immorality, families are rebuilding, and people are turning to god. This situation makes me sad cause u and your wife are dear to us and it hurts me cause I know a lot of peoples faith will b hurt, but I'll remain loving u..
November 30 at 5:34pm via mobile · Like

--- · 263 mutual friends
---, I edited my comment about the source of the blog to minimize confusion
November 30 at 8:15pm · Like

--- --- ---, I have to disagree with several of your points in your edited post. One I will take you to task on
is that I have "influenced wrongly with inaccurate facts". No, sir. If I have written anything anything wrong or inaccurate, I will correct it. But unless you specify and give some good reasons, I stand by every word that I have written. And when I wrote, "I understand your point," please don't misunderstand me to mean, "I agree with your point." BTW, I think you are thinking about this a bit too much and distracting from the topic at hand.
November 30 at 11:04pm · Like · 2

--- · 263 mutual friends
---, if you didn't want to be distract from your topic, which inherently is tied to many other topics on your blog, then you shouldn't have posted it in a way that it showed up on my wall.

You already corrected your incorrect facts about the ministers pay. I've already condemned everything that happened to you. You misrepresented how the ministers are paid out of ignorance, not deceit and you corrected that because you are a good man. You did not mention Kip reimbursing you or his rebuking --- for his actions, only that he totally took --- side and joined in on the threats towards your family. Paying you back and rebuking -- doesn't fix everything, nor does it say that justice was done and it wasn't where that should have ended. But, it's also not what you represented and doing those things says something that you left out. Also you leaving it out says something - NOT ABOUT YOUR INTEGRITY - but your goals and your intent - the unsaid goal and what you really think should happen to --- and ---, which I can say confidently IS NOT in alignment with the scriptures. I can say that that and challenge you because I'm not out to support Kip, --, ---, or you. The obvious anger, sarcasm, etc. and the anger that it's produced in others is never what God intends to happen.

You speak of taking me to task on this war of words. Yet, I will take you to task on obeying the scriptures because you and I don't have to answer to each other and we will never see eye-to-eye until we both commit to submitting to the Lord and His word and let that be the standard by which this situation gets handlded - using all of the scriptures that everyone involved wants to leave out:
Deuteronomy 32:35 "It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them."

Luke 6:29-31 "If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you."

Proverbs 29:22 "An angry man stirs up dissension, and a hot-tempered one commits many sins."

Matthew 6:14-15 "14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Ecclesiastes 7:8-9 "The end of a matter is better than its beginning,
and ---ence is better than pride. 9 Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the lap of fools.

Proverbs 16:32-33 "Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city. 33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.

Proverbs 28:6 "Better a poor man whose walk is blameless than a rich man whose ways are perverse."

Galatians 6:7-10 "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers."

Ecclesiastes 7:5 "It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song of fools."

Here's what I know. God will not be mocked. Men who avert justice and do not take responsibility will be taken out by the Lord. What the Lord does with them shows in the end who obeyed him and who did not. So, all of these words are really meaningless. No of us can pierce into your heart, mine or even those who your blog puts into question, even though their actions make it seem obvious we can. A truly wise and honorable man - from the Bibles perspective - will stay his peace in the moment, acknowledging his own sins and shortcomings, then he will stay tuned and watch WHAT THE LORD DOES, and if the justice that man seeks never comes, he will acknowledge before the Lord that he let his anger get the best of him.

---, I believe your words. But as true as MOST OF THEM obviously are, they are still YOUR perspective - the perspective of an understandably angry man who in no way wants to resolve with those who wronged him. Otherwise in all that you wrote you would detail what would show responsibility taken and justice. They you would make a plea that they come to you and bring that justice. Your attack of --- in your blog and in this thread shows bad taste and proves your anger. He setup the meeting and took his time to be there and he also condemns what happened to you. Yet you rip him and his "epic failure". Maybe he isn't the silent horrible failure, but had a different perspective on what he saw happening.

But no ones perspective on every bad situation is always right and that doesn't make them a liar. So, out of respect for you, I responded after I said I was done.

Since there is no intent to have resolution if possible and no talk of forgiveness this entire blog and thread is not intended to honor God with His Justice through His Word, but to gather people to your cause.

If you don't want me to continue to distract from your point then simply delete me and my comments or leave it at me saying you were horribly wronged, I condemn what was done to you and I support seeing Justice done and again I am here to be an advocate in working to see that happen.
December 1 at 9:55am · Like · 2

------ ---, you speak with great wisdom here, and i agree with your aspect of God's justice
prevailing. Blogs are, by definition, people's individual perspective. I would not expect --- to have to run down the men who attempted to divide his marriage for the sake of the church (?) to tell them his feelings were hurt - I don't see that as a proper interpretation of Matt 5 - if these men know their brother --- has something against him, THEY are to leave THEIR gift at the altar and go be reconciled. However, i would recommend messaging --- privately, as the temptations are strong to drag things out when it comes to threads and blogs. Even if he spoke it in public, which is a danger to all who read, there are probably better ways to address things. Proverbs 10:19 - Sin is not ended by multiplying words, but the prudent hold their tongues.
December 1 at 10:07am · Like

--- · 263 mutual friends
agreed completely ---. Thanks!
December 1 at 10:11am · Like

--- --- ---, not most, but all, of my words are true. Also, I stand fully by all of my original comments on
minister compensation - nothing was incorrect about them, and I have not changed them, but to add a footnote at the end mentioning your thoughts and description of your situation.

My intent is clear. I am no longer a member of the church and have no desire to talk to VGSr or Kip, unless it is to accept their full retraction for the threats they have made against me and my family. I already went to each person involved in the threats and tried to resolve, and the result in each case was that they repeated their threats. I will not become a member of the church again.

If, by sharing my story, I can save some other person from undergoing the same threats and abuse, I have done my duty. And for the good of all of us, I hope that any and every other person so threatened or abused by the same or other persons, also steps forward with his story.
December 1 at 10:32am · Like · 1

--- --- I have known you for awhile and have never known for you to say things that were not
truthful and honest, so I stand behind you 100% and may God give you and your family the peace and tranquility that you need at this time.
December 1 at 10:39am · Unlike · 2

--- It wouldn’t change anything ---. People have been coming out with their stories for
a long time about hurts or abuse from this family and nothing gets done. Many, many, many leaders shake their heads and frown on the situations you or I have experienced, but can’t do very much unless there are changes at the top. Many people who are responding to your posts don’t know the family as well as you or I do, so they won’t get it. Or they aren’t coming forward with their stories because they were chased out of the church with threats or bullying the same way they have tried to do with us both. It saddens me when people say that exposing the truth is somehow dissention. If your brother doesn’t repent after several times isn’t it supposed to get exposed before the church and delt with? Maybe, fb isn’t the best way to expose it but I understand your frustrations and being fed up with it all. Every time it gets swept under the rug and not fully dealt with (again and again) its mocking people really having any fear of God and his power or that they will one day be held accountable. For me I just try to surrender to the idea that it will have to be God who moves this situation (not just yours, but mine and everyone else they continually abuse and treat with great and gross sin). I try to just use it as a lesson in trusting God. A brother recently helped me with the example of Judas and that it wasn’t just his sin of turning Jesus over, but he had been stealing from their ministry funds all along. Yet, God kept him in Jesus’s ministry because it was part of his plan. It doesn’t have to make sense to us I guess for us to know and trust God has a plan and will prevail. I’m sorry for all your hurts though and am really sad that you don’t want to be a part of our church. Please tell --- I love her and my heart is with her.
December 1 at 11:37am · Unlike · 4

--- Just read your story and you gave up and should have opened up to more people that tried to
help you. Do I believe you, yes, but don't justify unless you're part of true repentance and not of feeding bitterness and spreading the unbelief in God. Are you being completely honest.
December 1 at 2:20pm · Like

--- · 263 mutual friends
Just so --- and all of the believers in this thread understand why we can't get anywhere or see eye-to-eye. It's because people who have faith in God and the Bible, can't see eye to eye with those who have shipwrecked their faith. ---'s not trying to accomplish anything in the arena of getting those who wronged him to do what is right - nothing can be done if both parties don't want that. His goal is that you join him on his journey from faith to reason.

A little exert of ---s words:
"the Bible is not compatible with science. If God exists, I am certain that He does not resemble the God of the Bible in the slightest way.
And you know, the evil sh*t that people did to me at church was it's own type of hidden blessing, allowing me the extra push I needed to step out and leave organized religion. It's a type of growing up, leaving faith for reason.....Hopefully many more can join me before I am done."

And people were naive enough to think that this was entirely about wrongs done and wasn't about hurting people's faith in God and the Bible. That's the only thing the words of those who have shipwrecked their faith can do - Hurt other people's faith.

Very disappointing ---. I feel bad for what happened. But I no longer feel bad that it lingers because for you it has to linger or that shatters beliefs that the Bible doesn't work - because after all of your motives here it's clear what your goals are and what's driving you - TOO SCARED TO SPEAK ALL THE WRONGS THAT WERE DONE THEN AND TOO SCARED TO SPEAK ALL THE RIGHTS THAT WERE DONE NOW. While I refrained and didn't actually believe there were lies in your thread here and your blog. I will assert now that there is the most insidious of lies about your goals and intentions to destroy people's faith. Your lies were not in describing what was done to you. It was your silence in disclosing all that was done to apologize, pay back and hold offenders accountable and it was your silence about your goals to destroy people's faith so they would join you in your in the journey of shipwrecking your faith as well.

Since God may not or may not exist, than I suppose may or may not be able to continue ignoring His words to you, " Mark 9:42-43 - "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck."

Regardless, what was done that was wrong to you was wrong and needs to stand as such. Don't worry about more replies. I've unfollowed this post and won't get anything sent to me.

If you ever find that God does exist and that is is in fact the God of the Bible, I'll be right here to be your advocate in getting you justice for the wrongs done to you because no matter how bad a wrong is.... with God, the Bible, and the Power of the Cross ANYTHING can be fixed.....
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December 2 at 1:44am · Like · Remove Preview

--- I also have known --- --- for a while and have no doubt he is telling the truth. I have
also known --- to be an honest and intelligent man. As for the the ICC and ICOC; how about God’s kingdom! Is that not the kingdom we ultimately want to be in. I do not know the full details of the ICC I am not a member someone who I was good friends with is a minister in it in LA. I have not really spoken to him in a long time though, sad as it is but sometimes people just lose contact. I am a current member of the ICOC I guess however I really am not comfortable with labels I prefer follower of God. I am not writing this to trivialize anyone and there issues. What happened to --- is a disgrace and pray whoever is involved get’s dealt with somehow. However as a member who was baptized at 13 and left at 25 only to come back at 30 I can say that I would not be where I am if I did not see God’s church. During my 5 years away I tried other churches and frankly were not impressed most did not even acknowledge mine or my wife’s presence and frankly if it was it was to ask if we were coming back next week. Again my experience people may have different experiences and I hope they are truly working for you. I had also in those 5 years moved to a different city and what I saw in this city was night and day different I saw God’s church again. Now as far as finances well until recently I have been supporting my wife through nursing school so I had no finances. The church though really helped us out there were times they filled up my gas tank or helped buy our groceries because either I could not work or something happened to drain the bank account. If it wasn’t for them I do not think my wife may even be an RN right now. I remember the days of evangelists going up on the pulpit telling you need to give more money or people going around like loan sharks asking for your contribution and checking your name off. To be honest if money is even brought up anymore I still cringe. However, my churches contribution now is anonymous with a plate passed around. No more loan sharks. I do not know what it is like in other churches I can only write about mine. This is not a defense or an accusation, I just ask anyone who read this to be like like the Bereans and examine the scriptures to see if what you are living is right or what you see is right. Remember whether ICOC, ICC or whatever letters you choose in front of your church affiliation , in the end we stand alone before God watch your life and doctrine closely.
December 2 at 5:33am · Unlike · 4

------ ---, you can't 'get anywhere' with --- because you do not 'bear with your brother'
when he goes through trials. you do, but only to adegree you're comfortable with. use the whole bible.
December 2 at 8:38am · Like · 1

------ I would also posit this, which is why many are leaving 'faith' fo r'reason' - the
doctrines of infallibility and inerrancy of scripture are, to my findings, recent (last 200 years-ish) doctrine, much in response to Darwin's teachings on evolution - a reaction. I would recommend William Lane Craig's debates and works on the subject of science and the Bible. For starters. Another work, the Lost World of Genesis One, helps with the scope of the 'creation' account and treating the account in scripture as allegorical, etc. People of real, logical faith can swallow the earth/universe as billions of years old - but it takes undoing someof the reactionary philosophies and theologies that have sprung up in the last couple hundred years.
December 2 at 8:57am · Unlike · 2

--- ---. Very sorry you went through this. Tragic. Terrible feeling to be wronged and then have
no justice. Pretty big sin in Gods eyes. Keep close to God. He hears your prayers. Peace.
December 2 at 10:45am via mobile · Unlike · 1

--- ---, tienes mucha razon en decir k se hable de los buenos momentos,y de las cosas
positivas k pasaron dentro de la iglesia.pero tienes k aceptar que k uno de los mas grandes enfoques de ese movimiento,es el dinero!.. la contribución semanal,la de los miércoles cada 2 semanas.Cada año la contribución especial.etc,etc..por fortuna,yo forme parte de la iglesia como soltero,pero ahora k tengo a mi esposa y mis hijos,entiendo y apoyo completamente a ---,si alguien amenazara o atentara contra la estabilidad e integridad de mi familia.los mato como perros desgraciados,sin importar quienes sean o a k se dediquen..Luis sabes k tu y Maricela serán por siempre parte de mi vida y de mi corazon!pero tienen k aceptar k aunque traten de hacer lo correcto,si los líderes y manejadores de las iglesias tienen sus ojo$ en otras meta$`...dificilmente llegaran a algun lado..y veanlo en el crecimiento de la iglesia de Chicago..k hasta donde sé.ha sido muy pequeño en los últimos años!! Por que??? Por k gente de clace media o baja,gente k vive de las estampillas de comida o k tienen trabajos donde reciben el salario mínimo,difícilmente se comprometeran a engordarle la pansa y los bolsillos a pecez gordos.k muchas de las veces ni llegan a conocer!!!
December 2 at 11:34am via mobile · Unlike · 1

--- It is clear that we have a different perspective of the events regarding our sit down with
VGSR and Kip. I'm not accusing you of lying - to be clear. I'm also not minimizing or insinuating that what had happened to you was not ---ed sin. About this, I did not, nor do not, think you we're dishonest.
That being said, I remember the event as a rebuke delivered and accepted, apologies made and a mutual commitment to do each other's best to move forward. I also recall monies being repaid along with the apologies. I left that appointment with a clear conscience with the impression that sin was owned, an unjust debt repaid, and a step taken in the right direction spiritually/mutually. If someone is corrected, admonished, rebuked and further confesses their sin and takes responsibility, I don't know what more I could say or do. I believed your story and so acted on it and took VGSR to task. I thought that it was made clear I believe your account as accurate, and I expected ownership and restitution.
Had you made me aware there been more you'd needed from me, or more perceived I should done, I would have done so. I am sorry that my best actions were not enough for you in this situation. As such, via this blog/post are the first time I've heard these sentiments from you and it's been about two years since this discussion you mentioned. It's been about 4 years or more since the actual "bilking" itself that I was made aware of and reacted to.
I cannot speak specifically on the issue of "threats" and an attack on your family because nothing of that nature took place in our meeting. I would say, I'd not agree with such an approach either and absolutely would have spoken up had that occurred in our meeting or any of the discussions that you and I've had. Beyond that in all of our talks, you never mentioned that there were threats of any kind or I would have addressed that as well.
I would like to meet with you face to face and discuss these matters in person. I think that would be much more fruitful and make for a better understanding. Let me know and we can set a time when you and your family return from Mexico to Phoenix.
With love and concern,
December 2 at 8:50pm · Like · 4

--- --- ---: Thank you for acknowledging that it was not OK for Kip, et. al. to threaten me or my family.
Since I realize that means taking a stand that could potentially threaten your paycheck, it means that much more. We can talk more in person if you like, as you have suggested.

---: (Since you have un-friended me I believe that you will be unable to read this, but I will answer your accusations for the record.)

You made several statements that I would like to correct. No worries, no hard feelings from my side. I bet if we were talking in person we would have resolved the misunderstandings already.

I am not sure where you get the idea that I don't want resolution of the problem or for those who wronged me to do what is right. Certainly not from my words. I have already made clear that for me, resolution would be very simple - the offending parties apologize and retract their threats.

Ideally, they would also commit themselves to not making any similar threats to anyone else or their family. Is this unreasonable?

I do think that anyone who is in one of Kip's churches should know that it is his policy to try to step in and destroy marriages and families for the sake of the church. I, for one, was part of his ministries for 15 years and never, ever knew. People should be able to make an informed decision as to whether or not they want to be in a church like that. It should be noted that Kip's threats were not done in the heat of anger; they are part of church policy and have not been retracted.

Your hypothesis that I need the events in question to "linger" just to boost the fragile beliefs in my own head sounds good on the surface until you reread my words that you yourself copied and pasted. Then you will realize that my beliefs changed BEFORE the threats happened. Being threatened by church leaders did nothing to change my beliefs, it only pushed me out of the church organization. And I'm not quite sure how a change in my beliefs makes all of my other words suspect, as you seem to believe.

Now I'm kind of mad. You accuse me of lying by not disclosing "(1)all that was done to apologize, (2)pay back and (3)hold offenders accountable"?


1. I am still waiting for any kind of an apology from Kip or VGSr. As I have now stated multiple times, I went to each of them seeking an apology or retraction, and all I got was being re-threatened.

2. The (partial) repayment was just one of many, in my opinion, irrelevant details that I did not include, due to editorial concerns about length. However, after you brought up several days ago, I did add it to my blog post, as a measure of good faith and to destroy any illusion of an argument against my story.

3. The offenders have been held accountable? That is news to me. In fact, it is precisely that lack of accountability that motivated me to write and post my story in the first place.

Sincerely, your "shipwrecked" friend, ---
Wednesday at 12:51pm · Like

--- sorry to hear about this --- .
Wednesday at 1:27pm via mobile · Unlike · 1

--- ---, if your are ever in --- area again, look me up. I feel we're "kindred spirits". So many similar
experiences and paths traveled.

Such a pity...all the misled, deceived people, irreparable damage done, all for such fictitious nonsense as "faith". So sad.
Wednesday at 4:39pm via mobile · Unlike · 1

--- ---, When I read the blogs I do not see any name at the bottom of them or anoything stating that
you are the author. Why don't you put your name on them? Also, If you wrote the blog 'My Journey From Faith To Reason' and, because of scientific knowledge, you truly believe some of those statements such as 'Noah's flood of the whole world was just of the whole known world, or whole world of the Jewish people at that time, not the whole world as we understand it today' and 'People evolved from lesser beings. If this is not true, then God put a whole bunch of evidence there to lead all of mankind astray, not too cool' then you must have very limited scientific knowledge or your great learning has driven you mad. There are many evidences that the flood was not just limited to the area where the Jewish people where. Try researching Dinosaur graveyards and clams on Mount Everest. What 'bunch of evidence' is there that we evolved from lesser beings? What sort of lesser beings?...Apes, tadpoles, fish, etc?

And, to answer the question of "How come there is so much detail written about what Jesus was doing before the crucifixion, and almost zero afterwards for the 40 days that he spent talking to his astonished followers? (Just that he ate a broiled fish)" ----> First, 'Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.' (John21:25). Second, maybe it is because Jesus was right in telling the words from the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus:

"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'" (Luke 16:31)

If you wrote the blog, then I pray that you think seriously about what your lack of facts and knowledge may do to some people's faith in God and your responsibility for that. Also, you must remember that faith is 'being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see' (Hebrews 11:1).

One or more wrongful actions of men should not destroy your faith in God nor should you expect to find things, scientifically or otherwise, that will point a finger directly at something or some instance that you will be able to say clearly 'There is God!' For as with the kingdown of God, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21).

 You have been hurt and wronged by fellow Disciples and those Disciples should not only repent but should also prove their repentance by their deeds (Acts 26:20) which they may never do. Yet you still have an abligation, if you want to remain a follower of God (a Disciple) you must forgive them from the heart:

In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart." - Matthew 18:34-35

I am not sure if you have forgiven them, which forgiveness is not conditional, but please do as I care about your spiritual state as well as theirs. I do love you ---.
Wednesday at 6:08pm · Edited · Like

--- --- ---: I should have written this in my earlier response to you, but let me quickly break down the
reason that you and I have a "different perspective of the events regarding our sit down with VGSR and Kip".

Let's keep in mind that the purpose of our "sit down" was to deal with three things: 1. a specific situation of deceit that was premeditated and ongoing for months, 2. related gross misappropriation of funds, (swindling) and then 3. threats made thereafter to avoid any disclosure of said situation.

"a rebuke delivered and accepted." No, none, zero, zilch, nada - rebuke was either delivered or accepted for either 1. deceit or 2. the swindling.

Kip's words: It was clearly a "misunderstanding".

The threats were downgraded to insensitivity and then somewhat "rebuked," but what is even that worth when both VGSr AND Kip soon later made much more aggressive and threats against me?

"is corrected, admonished, rebuked and further confesses their sin and takes responsibility". Again, there was ABSOLUTELY ZERO correction, admonishment, confession, or responsibility taken for either 1. deceit, much less premeditated or ongoing, or 2. gross misappropriation of funds.

VGSr faked amnesia and Kip never even considered that I might be telling the truth. And in fact the biggest problem I had with the meeting was the complete LACK of confession or taking of responsibility of anything meaningful. Unless you count what amounted to confessing making thin-skinned --- feel bad.

"Apologies made" Absolutely ZERO apology was made in this meeting for 1. Ongoing, premeditated deceit, or 2. gross misappropriation of funds. And any apology made for insensitivity or whatever else was made with a clear and present danger of repercussions for VGSr up to and possibly including losing his job. Anyways, of what worth is any apology when your arm is twisted behind your back?

So I guess your perspective is that things turned out well because "something" was done, and mine is that things turned out poorly because nothing *of substance* was done. VGSr confessed nothing, gave no apology, and took NO responsibility for the main issues that motivated our meeting.
Thursday at 7:18pm · Like

--- --- - --- - clearly we have, as I've already mentioned, a very different perspective from those events. You are entitled to your point of view as am I and we can agree to disagree on these points. I find it worth noting, that I've been a member of several of "Kip's Churches" as you put it and find the accusation that the policy of all those "churches" is to "attack families." That certainly does not match my experiences nor does it match any directives I've received as a minister trained by Kip and overseeing ministries in Stockton, Portland, Eugene, East LA, Ventura, and now Phoenix. As we've clearly established, you and I differ on our experiences and our perspectives on these matters as well as the most significant matters of the Christian faith, ergo - the belief in the God of the Bible and the nature of obedience to His Word. I believe it is important for those who proclaim faith and "Amen" your tact consider your perspective - "Contrary to my wishes and years of attempts to reconcile the two, the Bible is not compatible with science. If God exists, I am certain that He does not resemble the God of the Bible in the slightest way." and also consider the history of your heart and it's marked changes. as well as The reasoning behind mentioning this is not, in any way, to justify how you were sinned against - but to illuminate that without a common reasoning based on God and His Word, it's unlikely that this conundrum will find resolution either of us can agree to. Bitterness has left it's mark (Heb 12:14-15) and I say that sadly, a man who proclaimed the cross that saved him now is an enemy of it. I'll pray for you and hope that God will bless every righteous thing that you do...

El Ministerio Latino: My Journey From Faith To Reason
Noticias y Clases de la Iglesia Cristiana Internacional "City of Angels" (Cuidad...See More

Thursday at 8:25pm · Like · Remove Preview

--- Regardless of how --- now feels about God, he and his family were grievously wronged. His
current faith has nothing to do with that. Your mentioning his wholly unrelated blog posts is merely a sad attempt to deflect blame away from the church. Let's have none of that. --- deserves a public apology from everyone involved and a refund. A church with any integrity would consider nothing less, nay, would be EAGER to make right the wrongs it has committed. There is no reason this cannot be done just because you don't have "common reasoning."
Thursday at 9:30pm via mobile · Unlike · 4

------ My sentiments precisely, ---. And ---, no worries, there are ten thousand upon ten
thousand other 'Disciples' in the world with whom you can safely fellowship, if and when you so desire.
Thursday at 9:33pm · Unlike · 1

--- --- ---, I don't think that having different religious beliefs should be any impediment to agreeing on
an accurate record of events.

Please understand that it is not my desire or intent to cause problems for you, only that my story be told as accurately as possible. To that end, it has seemed necessary to continue responding to the comments that you have been posting here, lest people be left with inaccurate impressions of events.

You mention that I am bitter. How do you know this - because I am telling my story, defending myself and trying to correct any distortions? (If it makes a difference, I don't feel bitter. In fact, I feel liberated.)

And your (accusation?) is true that my heart has had "marked changes." But isn't that part of growing? Isn't that the center of the Apostle Paul's story, and even Christianity itself, that our heart can change? To me, growing into a worldview ruled by science and reason is the definition of positive change. Perhaps it is of value to repeat, again, that my change of beliefs was PRIOR to the mess that went down with Kip and VGSr, not the other way around.

I am glad that the threats that were made against me and my family are not more widespread. Hopefully my sharing of my story will help keep it that way.
23 hours ago · Like

--- Those who say Kip wanted to destroy marriages reaches WAY back when he made the old ICOC
(and his new ICC) into a Cult. He used/uses the New Testament verses where it says Christians whose spouses leave due to a lack of their faith is OK to divorce. I never liked it, because it left me with one question: shouldn't keeping a marriage strong in spite of religious differences be a better option? I know at least two disciples whose wives "fell away" (more like "wandered away"), and their strong faith brought them back!

So, most claims made against Kip are true.
23 hours ago · Unlike · 1

--- --- ---, I did not know that, or if I once did, it did not register with me as a single guy. I'm floored.
4 minutes ago · Like

--- I don't think he SAID that marriages should break up if one leaves the church, but he didn't stop
them and neither did leaders. He may have IMPLIED that.
a few seconds ago

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